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I will quote both the ToS and OIO sections regarding this topic.
ToS on Data Usage (Residential)
"Exede Classic, Essential 10 and Exede Evolution Excess Use. If you are a subscriber to an Exede Classic, Essential 10 or an Exede Evolution Plan and your data usage reaches 100% or more of your monthly data allowance, we will alert you of this fact and offer you the option to purchase additional increments of data to use during the remainder of your monthly measurement period. If at any time your data usage exceeds your data allowance and you have not purchased additional increments of data, ViaSat will significantly slow and/or restrict your service, or certain uses of your service, until the end of your monthly measurement period; provided, however, that (i) if you have an Exede Evolution Plan, you will continue to have access to web pages and email at the regular speed, and (ii) with the Exede Classic, Essential 10 and Exede Evolution Plans, you will be able to continue to engage in all internet activities at the regular speed during your free zone."
OIO directly from FCC's website reguarding the OIO
"An Open Internet means consumers can go where they want, when they want. This principle is often referred to as Net Neutrality. It means innovators can develop products and services without asking for permission. It means consumers will demand more and better broadband as they enjoy new lawful Internet services, applications and content, and broadband providers cannot block, throttle, or create special "fast lanes" for that content. The FCC's Open Internet rules protect and maintain open, uninhibited access to legal online content without broadband Internet access providers being allowed to block, impair, or establish fast/slow lanes to lawful content."
Now with permission to speak freely this is where I personally ViaSat may be violating FCC's terms and please excuse me if I might have a misunderstanding.
I am currently being throttled due to >100% data usage so keeping that in mind on a previous thread I had asking why connection speeds are not as advertised and got clarification on such that when throttled you only get enough bandwidth to browse to Exede's website to buy more data. I perfectly understand that my connection speeds are significantly reduced from my normal browsing speeds but let us talk about the blocking.
Just so we are clear I shall clearly get the definition of "Blocking" from the Merriam Webster Dictionary so that there can be no confusion on the vague subject of blocking.
" Block (verb) ~ to place something in front of (something, such as a road) so that people or things cannot go into the area."
I sincerely apologize that the definition does not fully describe blocking but using its standards to write this definition, " Block ~ To stop traffic from entering a certain area such as a resident's router." If that definition is not up to par please excuse me as I did try my best.
Ok now lets gets away from the definition of blocking and into the actual discussion shall we!
Starting off certain websites when not in Late Night Free Zone are mysteriously not available and data can not be obtained, but right after the modem reboots promptly at 00:01 those websites become instantly available!
Using the ping command in CMD you can see trying to probe for a response fails four times with the packets being sent but lost shortly afterwards. If I am truly not mistaken here that would mean that my packets made it successfully out of my modem to the satellite and then to ViaSat's servers but got lost along the way which I would assume would be ViaSat blocking the connection. Now here is more proof that it could be potentially blocking!
I would of course do more websites but this would seem redundant.
Now that there might be potential proof let me explain where I might be seeing legal complications!
On the OIO page the "Bright Line Rules" Section 1 States
- No Blocking: broadband providers may not block access to legal content, applications, services, or non-harmful devices.
Now what would conclude me to believe that certain websites are being blocked from me accessing are as stated beforehand that before LNFZ I can access some websites and others I can not, during LNFZ I can access all the websites including the ones I could not access while under the throttling.
I am not trying to cause any problems but I would like to get a valid reason as to why all this is happening and if it is a legal issue what steps could/would be taken to fix it?
Thanks and Sincerely Christopher
Q: What do you mean by “significantly slowed and/or restricted”?and that goes back to the way microsoft has their site coded, which I think it is mostly flash based with lost of moving content so back to the dap I think their system is thinking because it sees the flash content is is blocking it while under dap.
A: Your service, or certain uses of your service, will be very slow or curtailed. For example, streaming videos and music, large file downloads, virtual private networking, voice/video chat, gaming and cloud backup services will not work. Remember that using your Free Zone (if your plan has one), the Buy More option or upgrading your service plan are all ways to avoid the significant slowing or restrictions that will result if you use 100% of your data allowance.
Now as far as google pinging and being able to load that is because they allow ping requests and the way their site is designed it is just a basic blank page. I could be wrong here but that is what I think is going on.
I would be curious if Alex or anyone could shed some light on the roll out of the liberty plan to more beams/ fully implemented network wide. I know there is a schedule, I guess the question is can that be made public or can you share some generic information about it?
also I wonder if the inherent latency of the satellite system, when compared to your 56K modem, could be the cause, rather than it being some deliberate blocking of specific sites by Exede?
Dial-up connections have a much longer time-out than non-dial-up connections...Even when not dapped some sites will require a reload command two or more times before the page loads, this will happen to non-dapped customers during heavy beam congestion...
So your browser may be responsible for some of your concerns.
i think exede could simplify matters quite a bit with all these allowance policies and fair use agreements and legal documents, etc etc and just say "like it or leave it, this is how it is gonna be". im in rural texas, and so i literally have no other option, theres not even local dialup anymore. I understand all the reasons the way things work like they do, but it would be nice if exede was a little more up front about matters. especially like, retransmission errors count against your total, even when they are our fault (congestion! stop selling more service if you cant meet demand!). make it clear that the data amount you are tallied is not the same as the amount of data you receive and transmit.
ive been wondering how this whole net neutrality thing might apply to exede, as im not sure how they could qualify as neutral in several situations, but this is not a typical internet provider situation, so who knows.
Some sites are worse than others for this. One that used to work, set the ping to under 300ms, or it timed out. Needless to say, that one cannot be accessed via satellite at all. (Called them to no avail, they won't change it.)
You d have to contact each site and find out what their timeout for a satellite connection is to see if that is the problem with that site, but I suspect it is the sites.
Again this was a change starting back October of last year. Up to that point DAP'd users could do all these things that don't work anymore. Exede's statement to me was that they just hadn't been enforcing the DAP policies in our area previously and started to late last year. Really? Nearly 2 years of using it and now suddenly the DAP is in effect? I was told when we signed on that everything would still work just fine under DAP, except much slower and that was true for about 18-20 months. Then boom.
They do extensive "fingerprinting" of traffic to determine type and whether it belongs in the high priority queue or the "good luck" queue.
I could be wrong, however since I have not been able to discuss in depth with any of their network engineers, the above is my best guess. My experience is that you will NOT be able to get a decent explanation of specifics of how they do traffic shaping and queuing. Good luck. VPN will get around it IF you can connect to the VPN service, however it depends on the VPN and I doubt it will be long before those connections are also blocked....er......significantly slowed down to unusable speeds as well.
Learn to live with it or up your plan. Not trying to be rude, just factual.
but yeah, it does seem that your options are their way or the highway
If netflix is doing something downright illegal, then I think that is a problem. If not, then the solution is to do everything you can to spend very little or no time DAP'd. I found what Brian wrote to be very interesting--didn't know about all this complex stuff about putting customers in lower priority queues, although I think this is a theory Brian has rather than being something he knows for sure?
But regardless, if I were running out of data all the time and getting DAP'd, I would regard that as a problem between my usage and Exede's terms. Not Exede's "fault", unless it were proven Exede was doing anything illegal, and I have seen nothing yet to indicate that has been proven. As to why things would change in terms of what you could access while DAP'd before as opposed to now, I would imagine that might have to do with increasing congestion and Exede's doing what it can to keep that problem down, if things like queues are part of what is going on. I do wish that more people who write on this forum would include where they live, so that if there are any interesting patterns i certain locations it would be apparent. One way to do this would be to sign our posts like this:
I never meant to imply anything Exede was doing was illegal. I also do not have any verifiable information to say exactly how throttling and trafiic control is being done on their network in particular. I can only draw conclusions from many years of working in the industry and how other businesses and companies that I have worked with manage data priority. Also it is interesting to take a look at how the Accelnet servers generally function and what the capabilitied are. In my last post I did indicate I could be wrong. The fact of it all is that the information on how it is done is not detailed anywhere at Exede.
I would love for Exede to post specifics on what / how data is prioritized and managed but I doubt that will occur as it is likely considered very proprietary in regards to their ability to deliver the service they do.
My primary point above was to give a better idea of what is probably happening as well as remind some folks that this is not how it always was and the frustration some users experienced and many who still do when the changes last year took effect. The terms of service clearly allow Exede to do what they are doing and for reasons I understand. That does not change the fact that the service many of us were used to prior to the changes last year is not functionally the same service today once the DAP takes effect. In my case I have made my changes and am fine with my new plan and no longer go over.
The big frustration many are recently having is that Exede seemed to indicate here even on this forum for a long time after the changes occurred that they do not block any traffic specifically but when DAPd some services may not work due to reduced speeds. Well that turns out is not the full picture as very basic things such as telnet or basic smtp and pop3 sessions did not work which are very light on bandwidth if running from a command prompt telnet session. The fact that these things worked on a 28.8 modem and not on Exede when DAPd contradicted what many were told. We were led to believe that everything would still woek when DAPd it would just be at dialup speeds and up to late last year this was the case.
I can't speak to the legality of the putting controls in place that would hinder these types of connections when compared to the net neutrality (which I think is a terrible thing to have passed), but I want people to have a full and educated understanding as to why it is happening and why Exede can indeed say they don't block anything.
Exede serves a market that no one else is serving and I personally am fine with the service I recieve and have nade peace with the changes, but I also believe it is important for Exede to be forthcoming and open about their service when it comes to things like their DAP policies. Their ToS is worded very carefully and supports the prevention of these services whe DAP is in effect.
I meant for these posts to be informative. Hope they help others better understand the service.
I brought up the part about illegal vs.not illegal to reply to people who believe that when they have problems it MUST somehow be Exede doing something wrong. The internet is so complex and technologies becoming more and more complex, so I am surprised when people jump to the conclusion that any problems they have are due to Exede. I am even more surprised when people jump to the conclusion that they are being deliberately railroaded/cheated by Exede. Not saying companies don't do these things sometimes, but unfortunately so many people seem to think this is rampant, when there are many many other possible explanations when things go wrong. Exede actually has a good reputation as being one of the best satellite internet providers rather than being a perpetrator of injustice. Not saying that problems on Exede's end don't occur, but I see no reason to think this happens frequently or intentionally.
Available screen. And I do mean immediately, not after a brief or lengthy attempt to connect. No sooner than I go and purchase additional data that same web site is available. Imagine that. Happens once, okay possible hiccup in system. But this has occurred every month for the last 4 months, at least. There is no slowed processing that causes a timed out message. There is no access to sites, period. Why not slow the processing rather than the site is not available. This message never occurs during the billing cycle until data limit exceeded.
We, the customers, must decide with our wallets what is acceptable and what is not. Exede has pushed me to the end of that acceptability limit.
Yesterday I was put on DAP as I was the last 3 months and my account showed only 10% usage. Which forced me to call the tech for the 3rd month in a row so that I could be told "Oh sorry about that the system is automated and some how it put you in restriction. Which for clarification does not result in time-outs when trying to do things; what is really happening is your modem is resetting your connection. Also know as "Connection reset by peer;" sound familiar? If it were a time-out issue, this would take a while, since most browsers natively support dial-up, but no browser or any software, chat, steam, many games, all included do not support the connection being abruptly reset which is also known as a broken pipe.
So, in my opinion, no customer should be apologizing for poor service, I would not apologize to any other company if they gave me poor service, so why Exede? Because they are a satellite ISP they get special allowances? No, they get that allowance from government subsidies.
The connection reset by peer can very definitely be caused by the added latency on your Exede connection while under DAP. The normal latency on the Exede while under no restriction is usally 600+ms for me. Under DAP this increases quite a bit. The fact it hits so quickly is probably due to the way Accelnet server is passing the traffic to the server you are trying to access. The problem I believe is the way traffic is "shaped" or queued based on your plan and whether you are in DAP or not. Please google Accelnet servers and see some of the things that can be done and understand that Exede (and others) used this technology to control network bandwidth.
I am certainly not defending Exede's perceived blocking of some services as this (as stated before) has not always been the case. It really kicked in late last year as they introduced new plans. My guess is in order to meet the Bandwidth demands brought by the new plans and the new subscribers, they had to significantly change the way the network was controlled. This all corresponded to the change in the TOS and Policies.
Net Neutrality will probably NOT apply to Exede as they block .... I mean limit .... the bandwidth to all services equally. Net Neutrality is meant to prevent a provider from say give Netflix better access to their network subscribers than say Amazon. In this case Exede equally throttles traffic depending on the plan you have agreed to sign up for. Again I am not defending or condemning, just laying out what I interpret it to mean.
You say we need to make a statement with our wallets, yet the fact of the matter is nearly everyone who uses Exede has no other options than Hughesnet or we would not be using Exede. I have 100 Mbps connection at my office that costs just a little more than what I pay for my Classic 15 plan. I know someone in Chattanooga getting a Gigabit internet for about what is paid for the Classic 25 plan with Exede. If they were options here I would jump on that opprtunity. Unfortunatley I do not, so I must make do.
Your bigger issue is getting thrown into DAP when you haven't used your data for the month. That is another problem in and of itself. I do encourage you to do the testing you are referring to and look forward to seeing the results.
i incorrectly stated that it had fixed itself, i forgot that i had..well.. gotten creative. wheres theres a will, theres a way.
exede is seriously luckily that most erm.. 'power users' run from them. if they had a large population of capable and motivated folks angry with them, itd be no time before there was enough proof for a class action lawsuit. im not sure if they are corrupt or incompetent, but the system does not run according to the ways outlined in the legal documents. it just doesnt.
i go round with myself about it, but, it doesnt really matter. i dont have any other option than satellite. and if i remember correctly, all satellite internet, is just rebranding of viasat. i expect that that if one decides to stop doing business with you for security reasons, they all do.
in any case, expect to see revisions in the legal documents within the next 6 months. just a prediction.
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