Terms of Service compliance with the Open Internet Order (FCC)

  • 3
  • Problem
  • Updated 4 years ago
Archived and Closed

This conversation is no longer open for comments or replies and is no longer visible to community members. The community moderator provided the following reason for archiving: Outdated

First off please excuse me if I may have a misunderstanding but I would like to address this issue.

I will quote both the ToS and OIO sections regarding this topic.

ToS on Data Usage (Residential)
"Exede Classic, Essential 10 and Exede Evolution Excess Use. If you are a subscriber to an Exede Classic, Essential 10 or an Exede Evolution Plan and your data usage reaches 100% or more of your monthly data allowance, we will alert you of this fact and offer you the option to purchase additional increments of data to use during the remainder of your monthly measurement period. If at any time your data usage exceeds your data allowance and you have not purchased additional increments of data, ViaSat will significantly slow and/or restrict your service, or certain uses of your service, until the end of your monthly measurement period; provided, however, that (i) if you have an Exede Evolution Plan, you will continue to have access to web pages and email at the regular speed, and (ii) with the Exede Classic, Essential 10 and Exede Evolution Plans, you will be able to continue to engage in all internet activities at the regular speed during your free zone."

OIO directly from FCC's website reguarding the OIO
"An Open Internet means consumers can go where they want, when they want. This principle is often referred to as Net Neutrality. It means innovators can develop products and services without asking for permission. It means consumers will demand more and better broadband as they enjoy new lawful Internet services, applications and content, and broadband providers cannot block, throttle, or create special "fast lanes" for that content. The FCC's Open Internet rules protect and maintain open, uninhibited access to legal online content without broadband Internet access providers being allowed to block, impair, or establish fast/slow lanes to lawful content."

Now with permission to speak freely this is where I personally ViaSat may be violating FCC's terms and please excuse me if I might have a misunderstanding.

I am currently being throttled due to >100% data usage so keeping that in mind on a previous thread I had asking why connection speeds are not as advertised and got clarification on such that when throttled you only get enough bandwidth to browse to Exede's website to buy more data. I perfectly understand that my connection speeds are significantly reduced from my normal browsing speeds but let us talk about the blocking.

Just so we are clear I shall clearly get the definition of "Blocking" from the Merriam Webster Dictionary so that there can be no confusion on the vague subject of blocking.
" Block (verb) ~ to place something in front of (something, such as a road) so that people or things cannot go into the area."
I sincerely apologize that the definition does not fully describe blocking but using its standards to write this definition, " Block ~ To stop traffic from entering a certain area such as a resident's router." If that definition is not up to par please excuse me as I did try my best.


Ok now lets gets away from the definition of blocking and into the actual discussion shall we!

Starting off certain websites when not in Late Night Free Zone are mysteriously not available and data can not be obtained, but right after the modem reboots promptly at 00:01 those websites become instantly available!
Using the ping command in CMD you can see trying to probe for a response fails four times with the packets being sent but lost shortly afterwards. If I am truly not mistaken here that would mean that my packets made it successfully out of my modem to the satellite and then to ViaSat's servers but got lost along the way which I would assume would be ViaSat blocking the connection. Now here is more proof that it could be potentially blocking!

Google ~



I would of course do more websites but this would seem redundant.

Now that there might be potential proof let me explain where I might be seeing legal complications!

On the OIO page the "Bright Line Rules" Section 1 States
"
  • No Blocking: broadband providers may not block access to legal content, applications, services, or non-harmful devices.
"

Now what would conclude me to believe that certain websites are being blocked from me accessing are as stated beforehand that before LNFZ I can access some websites and others I can not, during LNFZ I can access all the websites including the ones I could not access while under the throttling.

I am not trying to cause any problems but I would like to get a valid reason as to why all this is happening and if it is a legal issue what steps could/would be taken to fix it?

Thanks and Sincerely Christopher 
Photo of Christopher Koster

Christopher Koster

  • 25 Posts
  • 18 Reply Likes
  • Concerned

Posted 4 years ago

  • 3
Photo of LorrieL

LorrieL, Champion

  • 647 Posts
  • 219 Reply Likes
I am not sure why I am even trying to comment on this, since I have so little tech knowledge, but it does occur to me to wonder if your speed being drastically reduced due to having used up your data allowance might cause you to not be able to connect to certain sites, which may look like blocking when the problem is actually lack of certain speeds? and then once lnfz hits you are no longer speed restricted?
Photo of Sharon Munson

Sharon Munson

  • 5 Posts
  • 1 Reply Like
I have 6 more months of hell with this group. I am using another broadband service with no restrictions and better service in- between. I use every ounce of my allowance  every month then change to my Mountain Broadband  service. It is as fast or faster than the Excede.I have tried every option they offered and spoke numerous times to Excede staff. A $400.00 bill wouldn't cover a month..and that is without streaming. Now I stream to my hearts content on their service and then cut them off!! 
Photo of Carolyn Barfield

Carolyn Barfield

  • 4 Posts
  • 0 Reply Likes
Bingo Christopher Koster! I too have had the same "web page not available" screen when my "data restriction" kicks in. But access to Excede is fast even with no other web pages available. I am praying for another provider to locate in my area that operates with NO DATA levels. You pay for internet access.... you get internet access. Period, end of sentence. We moved to this area from an unrestricted AT&T U-Verse internet to this limited garbage that goes out on sunny days and rainy days. The price?? Higher for less access. Not a happy customer, and not recommending them to anyone.
Photo of LorrieL

LorrieL, Champion

  • 647 Posts
  • 219 Reply Likes
Carolyn, I would love to have access to an internet provider where I would have unlimited access/no data allowance.  But since I NEVER had access to this because of the rural area where I choose to live, I don't feel deprived the way you do.  I do feel deprived in the sense of gee I wish I had what those city dwellers have, but there is no one really to blame since I choose to live here.  I really love where I live on 5 wooded acres, so I am not going to move to get unlimited internet access.   And because without satellite internet like Exede, my only option would be dial-up, I am GRATEFUL for Exede's existance until such time as some other kind of high speed/broadband service becomes available where I live. 
To be honest, I cringe whenever someone comes to this forum and makes nasty comments like calling Exede "garbage"--Exede is not in competition with landbased broadband--can't ever be because it is an entirely different technology expressly started up for rural location customers.  
I can understand your frustration at not having what you had before, but really, why take it out on Exede?  Exede didn't cause you to move to an area where you can't get unlimited internet.
I am frustrated if I think about the fact that I live about 1 mile away from where I would have access to cable. But I just can't think of anyone to BLAME for this really.  Good thing, because if I did get all hot and blamed someone, I would be unhappier.  I am happier because I accept that, at this time,  this is what is available where i live.  
Photo of LorrieL

LorrieL, Champion

  • 647 Posts
  • 219 Reply Likes
Sharon, I looked up Mountain Broadband--looks like it is in Colorado?  So no go for me.  Is this a line of site internet technology? If so, there are no satellites above the earth involved and one expects to get very good speeds and unlimited access.  Like what my brother has in the nice flat rural area he lives in in Fla.  I live in a very hilly, well mountainous really, area of central Va which is not as amenable to line of site technology, so this is not available yet where I live.  
when the time comes to pick an internet provider, it is the customer's responsibility to research what is available to them and choose the best option.  I don't know if Mountain wasn't available when you signed up for Exede, but that is kind of how it is.
I have exactly 2 high speed choices where I live, Exede or Hughesnet--very similar internet satellite providers.  I read up on both in detail and picked the one with the plan that is the best for me, which happened to be Exede.   If tomorrow I suddenly get access to a better highspeed technology with unlimited access, why I would want to switch asap of course.  I would then have to think about where I am in my 2 year contract with Exede, how much I would have to pay  if I cancelled early in that 2 yr period, and then I'd have to decide whether to go ahead and switch or wait until my contract with Exede ended.  So it makes no sense to blame Exede for not being as good as land-based broadband.  This is the way it is in life...we figure out what we want and whether or not it is available to us, and act accordingly.  I can have feelings about not getting what i want, but it isn't logical or fair to blame the world when I don't have available to me what exactly I want, or when I make a choice and then find out, oops there was a better plan I could have picked and now I am stuck in a contract.  If this happens to me, I blame me and resolve to do better the next time I make choices.  I may not like some of a company's rules, like I don't like having to pay ongoing rental for equipment but that is the only option they have.  I know businesses also have reasons for what they do.
So why do so many people compare apples and oranges (ISP's with differing technologies) and then get so angry at satellite internet?  the reason I am explaining this alternate view of having an "inferior" high speed technology is that I think a lot of angry people would feel happier and more peaceful if they could look at the facts more objectively without having to find villains when they aren't there.  While it is very common for us humans to get angry and blame a lot,  that doesn't mean we can't choose to look at things differently and become happier and healthier too.  I apologize if this sounds preachy. this philosophy of mine now is quite different than what I experienced in younger years.  This way feels so much truer and better so I'd love to share with others.
(Edited)
Photo of Knight Rider

Knight Rider

  • 957 Posts
  • 536 Reply Likes
I'm in the same boat Lorrie, Before I left HughesNet I looked and look for weeks, did find out after the fact though I could get DSL but the max lvl they have was like 60 a month for 6Mbps, and that is iffy sense I would at the very end of the line.  I looked in to the ATT U-verse and while it is in my aera it stops about a mile or so down the road.  I could get Charter cable, line ends at my neighbors house, problem there I have to pay like 15K to get the line run to the house.  So after looking and looking I decided I would give Exede a try and see how it works in comparison and so far I have no issues really.  Now and again I will get slow speeds but it usually dont last, and actually the channel I am in now has been great been getting like 10-15Mbps DL speeds
Photo of david

david, Champion

  • 560 Posts
  • 397 Reply Likes
Two comments. One, you're trying to get more bandwidth than you paid for which slows the the people down that live within their data. Two, if you did manage to get your way what will happen is once someone gets to 100%, snip, no more Internet for you until you buy more.
Photo of Christopher Koster

Christopher Koster

  • 25 Posts
  • 18 Reply Likes
One Comments David.
1) I am trying not to get more bandwidth if you would not resort to such ideas, I am simply bringing this issue to Exede with my knowledge and understanding on it for A) To show them a possible legal issue to save them time and money possibly later down the road and B) To improve Exede's awareness of possible problems.

Thank you very much David and may you have a blessed day!

-Edit-

I am perfectly happy with the bandwidth I do have and am not searching for more. If I wanted more I would buy a better plan ;)
(Edited)
Photo of Christopher Koster

Christopher Koster

  • 25 Posts
  • 18 Reply Likes
Coming Back just incase I was not clear, I do not want the extra bandwidth, I would not even mind having to sit 5 minutes for a webpage to load due to the slow speeds but I would like to actually visit websites without getting "connection failed" "connection reset" or "DNS Probe Failed", understand?
Photo of LorrieL

LorrieL, Champion

  • 647 Posts
  • 219 Reply Likes
I really am struggling here, trying to follow what you are both saying.  David are you saying that once you use up your data allowance, then it is to be expected you will not be able to connect to certain specific websites?  If your speeds are slowed to "x" amount, like to what dialup speeds are, then how is trying to connect to certain sites like "trying to get more bandwidth than you paid for"?  Are you saying that it is the speed restriction itself that causes certain websites to become unavailable, and if so, why is this true of some sites and not others?  Sorry if this is dense, but I am not kidding about my lack of tech knowledge, and would like to learn more.
Photo of Christopher Koster

Christopher Koster

  • 25 Posts
  • 18 Reply Likes
What David was implying from my understanding is that my post is trying to get me better bandwidth outside of the allotted data allowance, other than that I do not see anything else coming from it
Photo of LorrieL

LorrieL, Champion

  • 647 Posts
  • 219 Reply Likes
Christopher, I saw nothing in what you wrote that sounded the least bit like you trying to get anything except the answer to your question.  You appear to make an effort to be polite in your written communications which is awfully nice to see!  I am hoping 
David will post again, because I am wondering if he is saying that the only way for you to be able to get connections to every site is to have the greater speed (although I don't know why that would work that way), and I think he was saying that if Exede had to support greater speeds that would be needed to connect to every site, then they would run out of bandwidth for everyone unless they just cut off internet access completely for the people who exceeded their allowance.  David, if you see this, did I get that right?
Photo of Knight Rider

Knight Rider

  • 957 Posts
  • 536 Reply Likes
Christopher, I will read over this tomorrow and see if any of it makes sense to me or have anything I can add to help. Sadly too much to be reading at 11:40pm when I have to work in the morning.
Photo of LorrieL

LorrieL, Champion

  • 647 Posts
  • 219 Reply Likes
ha!  Very funny and no offence taken.
Photo of Old Labs (VS1-329-L12FZ)

Old Labs (VS1-329-L12FZ)

  • 4281 Posts
  • 4367 Reply Likes
First, the order doesn't take effect until June 12 (60 days after publication in the Federal Register) unless there's some congressional action between now and then to prevent it - they keep threatening but we know how that goes with the paper tigers on the hill.

Second, https://www.fcc.gov/openinternet is a summary of the full 400 page order. Like most summaries, it glosses over some of the qualifiers/disclaimers in feel-good language to convince us that "we're from the governement and are here to help;  the fuller text of the bright-line rules from the order are:

"A person engaged in the provision of broadband Internet access service, insofar as such person is so engaged, shall not block lawful content, applications, services, or nonharmful devices, subject to reasonable network management."

"A person engaged in the provision of broadband Internet access service, insofar as such person is so engaged, shall not impair or degrade lawful Internet traffic on the basis of Internet content, application, or service, or use of a non-harmful device, subject to reasonable network management."

"The ban on throttling is necessary both to fulfill the reasonable expectations of a
customer who signs up for a broadband service that promises access to all of the lawful Internet, and to avoid gamesmanship designed to avoid the no-blocking rule by, for example, rendering an application effectively, but not technically, unusable. It prohibits the degrading of Internet traffic based on source, destination, or content.17 It also specifically prohibits conduct that singles out content competing with a broadband provider’s business model."

This one above should clarify the blocking debate... it's not the specific term used but the intent. 

"A person engaged in the provision of broadband Internet access service, insofar as such person is so engaged, shall not engage in paid prioritization."

Even the above is just summary but the disclaimers in bold above are particularly pertinent.  

ViaSat revised all of it's legal documents at exede.com/legal as early as December in anticipation of the FCC approval and subsequently revised them in March with its approval.
Whether ViaSat's Network Management polices are reasonable is hotly debated both hear and elsewhere - many feel that they are and that restrictions imposed when a subscriber violates the terms of service are necessary to ensure those who don't have access to the limited resources of a satellite internet connection.

Clearly, ViaSat feels it's reasonable to ensure others abiding by the terms of service have fair access to those limited resources. 

The final rule regarding paid prioritization only applies to the relationship between ISPs and content providers. In my opinion this is the heart of the order and is how this whole debate go started by a Netflix and Comcast pssing match - it's never about the consumer, it's always about the Benjamins.

That final one should have been the first rule listed to place it all into the proper context as to who's really being protected.
(Edited)
Photo of LorrieL

LorrieL, Champion

  • 647 Posts
  • 219 Reply Likes
I would love to understand this issue, but am still lost.  Is there any way you could pare it down/translate a bit for the likes of me?  I still don't understand the answer what exactly is the reason that Christopher cannot connect with certain websites?  I get as far as understanding that the speeds are severely curtailed when someone has used up/exceeded the monthly data allowance, but I don't understand how exactly this relates to not being able to access certain websites?
I just went and read some articles about Net Neutrality, hoping this would answer this particular question, but so far, for me, no answer.
Here is a quote from one article (followed by the link to entire article):
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/05/150527150950.htm?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=e...
"A key piece of the FCC's new regulation is the "no throttling" rule. This means broadband providers can't slow access to your favorite sites or applications. But it doesn't necessarily prevent a wireless broadband provider like AT&T or Verizon from slowing your entire connection to the Internet."
ok, that is the part I do easily understand.  But why is it that Christopher is unable to connect to certain websites at all once his speed has been lowered because he has used up his data allowance? Is something else being done by Exede to block his access to those specific sites he can't connect to or is it all related to the overall speed being lowered?  It does seem as if the FCC guidelines being described here say that the ISP can't block connections to particular sites, but they can block overall speed?  So what is keeping Christopher from connecting to certain sites but not others?
(Edited)
Photo of Ebal Nolom

Ebal Nolom

  • 35 Posts
  • 22 Reply Likes
Some websites will not establish/maintain a connection if a minimum threshold speed is not available.  This results in failure to connect to some sites while DAP'd.  I don't know if Exede has additional forms of blocking beyond that.  Can anyone think of a reason why it would benefit Exede to do that? 
Photo of LorrieL

LorrieL, Champion

  • 647 Posts
  • 219 Reply Likes
well, it sounds like it is possible that that is all that is going on, and that Exede isn't doing anything "wrong"?  which seems more likely since I don't know what the motive would be to curtail speeds AND make certain sites unaccessible by some kind of deliberate throttling of specific sites just because someone has used up their data allowance?  I understand the whole thing about throttling for other reasons, but not because someone has used up their data allowance. am I missing something here?
Photo of Knight Rider

Knight Rider

  • 957 Posts
  • 536 Reply Likes
OK so first things first, as promised I said I would read over this and see what I think of it.  As far as your screen shot of the ping to Microsoft, they have their firewalls/ systems designed to deny ping requests to help prevent attacks on their systems.  I say that because even if I do a ping to windows.microsoft.com from my work computer I get 100% loss as well.  Now that does not mean the site should not load, but I think the site is not loading while under dap do to the way ViaSat applies the dap and how they say 
 Q: What do you mean by “significantly slowed and/or restricted”?
 A: Your service, or certain uses of your service, will be very slow or curtailed. For example, streaming videos and music, large file downloads, virtual private networking, voice/video chat, gaming and cloud backup services will not work. Remember that using your Free Zone (if your plan has one), the Buy More option or upgrading your service plan are all ways to avoid the significant slowing or restrictions that will result if you use 100% of your data allowance.
and that goes back to the way microsoft has their site coded, which I think it is mostly flash based with lost of moving content so back to the dap I think their system is thinking because it sees the flash content is is blocking it while under dap.

Now as far as google pinging and being able to load that is because they allow ping requests and the way their site is designed it is just a basic blank page.  I could be wrong here but that is what I think is going on.

Thanks

NR
Photo of Christopher Koster

Christopher Koster

  • 25 Posts
  • 18 Reply Likes
Now Just thinking about it, does exede offer an option of automatic withdrawl for bonus data up to xxGB like say if I go over my allotted 15GB Exede would automatically take out the $10 for the bonus data and so on up to 10gb, The one thing that got me thinking about this was my Cellphone Data plan, if you go over on the data plan the "bonus data" is automatically added at the extra cost.
Photo of Knight Rider

Knight Rider

  • 957 Posts
  • 536 Reply Likes
It looks like for now at least you are still on the Classic plans.  Now as far as the exact detials of the Liberty plan you can look here

Basically the normal DAP don't apply to the liberty plan as long as you dont try to use it as an unlimited plan.  If you continue your normal light usage you will continue to see normal speeds and not really have any issues most likely as posted here by Jacqueline
(Edited)
Photo of LorrieL

LorrieL, Champion

  • 647 Posts
  • 219 Reply Likes
very interesting about the Liberty plan, but I am getting more frustrated as more of the "better" exede plans are becoming available, but none of them to me where I live.  I know, eventually that will change, but....
Photo of Knight Rider

Knight Rider

  • 957 Posts
  • 536 Reply Likes
haha I know Lorrie, To my understanding they released it to the beam there in Colorado where there HQ is kind of as a test.  Now that is has been tested and is getting such great reviews they are working on pushing it out to the rest of the network but what beams are next and a timeline on when it will fully take over the network or if it will fully replace all existing plans I have no idea.
Photo of LorrieL

LorrieL, Champion

  • 647 Posts
  • 219 Reply Likes
Steve, thank you SO much for your clear and concise answer to the "why won't some sites connect" question!  I thought I had read something to that effect before, but just couldn't remember.  Christopher, sounds like until you have access to something like the Liberty plan, that your best or maybe only option if you hit your data limit, to get connection to all the sites you want, would be to buy more GBs from exede at that point.  Not as easy as automatic addition of more data for a price, but not that hard either I guess.  and I don't think you were "stupid" for going over...happens to people all the time!  just a supply/demand problem. :)
Photo of Christopher Koster

Christopher Koster

  • 25 Posts
  • 18 Reply Likes
I would like to thank Lorrie Lencina, Old Labs, Knight Rider, Steve Frederick, Ebal Nolom, and David for taking your times to respond to my question to clarify on all of this and that it was a LARGE misunderstanding on my part which I do apologize for, but also thank you for giving me this knowledge that I lacked before :) I hope all of you have a blessed day!
Photo of LorrieL

LorrieL, Champion

  • 647 Posts
  • 219 Reply Likes
It was a pleasure chatting with you and I have learned some stuff by doing so, so thanks for that.  and you are most definitely not the only person to have had this question.  Nothing wrong with asking questions or wondering if something isn't as it should be.
Photo of Knight Rider

Knight Rider

  • 957 Posts
  • 536 Reply Likes
Christopher, It was not a large misunderstanding, and you have nothing to apologize for!!  Like I said the Liberty plan could be part of the changes ViaSat is making in light of the OIO.  Also it goes back to that you came here in a very nice and respectful tone and asked for some clarification. Which we are all happy to do for people like you.  That's why this forum is here for exact customers like you and it was our pleasure to help and I think we all learned stuff here.  

-Edit-

I would be curious if Alex or anyone could shed some light on the roll out of the liberty plan to more beams/ fully implemented network wide. I know there is a schedule, I guess the question is can that be made public or can you share some generic information about it?

Thanks

NR
(Edited)
Photo of thorneo

thorneo

  • 94 Posts
  • 33 Reply Likes
when I'm DAP'ed steam won't load at all but I can connect my 56k dail up modem to the system and use that and POOFFFFF I connect and stay connected for as long as my dial upp account will allow.  So as far as I can see VIASAT is blocking sites....
Photo of LorrieL

LorrieL, Champion

  • 647 Posts
  • 219 Reply Likes
Do you have an opinion as to what would be the motivation for Exede to do that in this case? I understand throttling/blocking when done for other reasons, but not so much why Exede would deliberately block access to certain sites for people who have run out of their monthly data allowance?
also I wonder if the inherent latency of the satellite system, when compared to your 56K modem, could be the cause, rather than it being some deliberate blocking of specific sites by Exede?
Photo of thorneo

thorneo

  • 94 Posts
  • 33 Reply Likes
all I know is when I'm over my limit I can connect my dial up modem and play my games that I paid for. I do think they block sites when I go over my doctor's office is even blocked. It is not any hardware on my end as some have said in other posts on here and the other forum. Even alex has said on a deleted post that " xbox live and steam could not be permitted when in DAP'ED mode. I can see no downloading of games but connecting just to play my game that I paid for nope I do not see that...  I paid for those games with the same paycheck I pay my exede bill every month with and yes I do expect to have access to them. I was all for the slowing of speeds when dap'ed but not flat out blocking thngs that I do when I get home from work I bust my hump 12 hours a day some times 7 days a week. VIASAT is blocking my connections and I do not be leave that it is some sites server setup I came to exede from dailup and the same sites that are blocked when dap'ed I CAN connect to on 56k modem. Ho and don't even get me started on ping times I just don't buy that ether.
(Edited)
Photo of Old Labs (VS1-329-L12FZ)

Old Labs (VS1-329-L12FZ)

  • 4281 Posts
  • 4367 Reply Likes
It's not simply a matter of speed, but rather the other restrictions when dap'd causing non-specific web sites to fail. As you note, "dial-up" works but dial-up ISPs don't have those restrictions and they're limited solely by maximum physical speeds that can be obtained over an aged copper infrastructure.

I suspect most dial-up ISPs don't even have to be concerned about congestion in this day and age since there are comparatively few dial-up users. Even if they were concerned it's fairly easy for them to address since it doesn't involve space flight. 

There is a decided difference between "blocking" and sites failing due to the restrictions imposed while dap'd. Over on the other forum there's a recent thread containing a gratuitous number of overly large screen captures claiming to be proof of "blocking" (thanks for chewing into my data cap unnecessarily)  - in point of fact none of them indicate blocking, but rather failure resulting from restrictions imposed while dap'd. That's little consolation to those experiencing those problems while dap'd since the result is the same - the sites are rendered unusable. Regardless, those individuals get little sympathy from many since the complaints simply amount to "Dr. it hurts when I do this" and with responses of "don't do that" the norm - (i.e. don't get dap'd or buy more).                     

What part of a minimum ping time that starts with 500-600 milliseconds due to the laws of physics and goes up from there is not understandable? Pinging a site is not a reliable indicator of anything - the "request" timeouts seen may simply indicate the site in question doesn't respond to ping request sent via  a different protocol than "normal" traffic or perhaps traffic over that protocol is in fact somehow restricted while dap'd. Know any of my web sites' IP addresses and ping to your hearts content and you'll receive request timeouts until the cows come home (you can;t get to them anyway - they're on a restricted network).

Obsession with speed is misplaced. Outside of streaming and file downloading most activities don't even require 12 mbps (that's why the early feedback from Liberty Plan users is encouraging) - if all sites did need that speed, we'd all need somewhere around a 3.888 TB monthly plan (assuming 24/7 usage and of course the price should not exceed $49.95 per month - but I'd settle for a 1TB monthly plan at that same price). Until 4K is the norm, many streaming sites don't even require 12mbps with proper network management of congestion. However, higher speeds do help to relieve congestion by getting things in and off the wire more quickly at least until there's a tractor trailer jack-knifed in the middle lane of the information super highway.

 
(Edited)
Photo of thorneo

thorneo

  • 94 Posts
  • 33 Reply Likes
as I said before I really don't mind being slowed down. it is the BLOCKING of sites I don't approve of. The latency of sat net is not a problem ether  ping times on dailup are much longer than on sat net as well. I do not and will not buy into that I at one time built home net works I had " before the last recession" a business installing home/business networks so I do know a bit about this. Most people can get away with 128k of internet speed because they only surf the net or facebook or email others. then their are some that need 512k then their are others that need 1megabit speed or higher. The fact that the telco copper is aging is not a factor ether because some of that old copper has been replaced with fiber optic lines. The fact that I CAN connect my dell steam box to a usb 56K modem and connect when I am DAP'ed does mean something here. as I have stated before alex said in a deleted post on here that " xbox live and steam are gaming sites and can not be permitted to connect when DAPP'ed". Well I paid jst as much if not more for both of those then I have for exede. And simply connecting will not hurt anything now downloading I can see that being blocked out but connecting so I can play one of my games I really can not see that at all... And besides I have my steam box set to do ALL updates and downloads on LNFZ time any ways.
(Edited)
Photo of Old Labs (VS1-329-L12FZ)

Old Labs (VS1-329-L12FZ)

  • 4281 Posts
  • 4367 Reply Likes
All straw-man arguments, throneo. I'm not the one making the misplaced analogies between land-base wire-line technologies and satellite - you are. You miss the obvious points, an 88K mile minimum roundtrip and the fact that the capacity of the bird some 22K miles above the equator off the west coast of Ecuador is fixed at launch and nothing short of manned space flight can increase that capacity. The terms of DAP were available when you signed up and are necessary to ensure all subscribers have their fair share of that capacity. Those who violate the dap policies pay the price rather than those who don't. In the meantime we all wait for greater capacity which can only be achieved with the new satellite launch in 2016.

If it were as simple as slowing everybody down to 5mbps ViaSat would likely do it, but it's a little more complex than that - when was the last time you saw highway congestion actually relieved by everybody going slower - more orderly maybe but no less congested.          
(Edited)
Photo of wm4bama

wm4bama, Champion

  • 426 Posts
  • 274 Reply Likes
Also keep in mind that all browsers have a time-out associated with how long does it take a web site to respond before the browser will display a message saying "This site is unavailable" or "Connection reset" or similar message...

Dial-up connections have a much longer time-out than non-dial-up connections...Even when not dapped some sites will require a reload command two or more times before the page loads, this will happen to non-dapped customers during heavy beam congestion...

So your browser may be responsible for some of your concerns.
Photo of pyrotuc

pyrotuc

  • 19 Posts
  • 5 Reply Likes
when ive gotten DAPped, which rarely happens (i got a CCNA in highschool to start, so i understand how things work), i realized that i cannot make any SSH connections, things have certificate/SSL errors (very alarming at first), and other failures that just cant be attributed to  slow speeds. either some sort of outright blocking is happening, or the data is being tampered with in such a way that secure connections cannot be established.  ive not noticed this to be dependent on destination, or traffic amount, so much as traffic type. SSH, irc, xmpp, imessage, and other things that seem to do non-transparent traffic on non-standard ports. i dont play games of any sort, so i wouldnt know about anything to do with that.  Ive read through the legal documentation some tonight, and i couldnt spot anything where they acknowledge that anything is blocked, though i guess in all fairness, 'restricted' is a synonym especially in the more technical jargon sense of the term. like say, if i read that port 22 was restricted, id know that SSH was being blocked, and would not assume that it meant it was only slowed down.

i think exede could simplify matters quite a bit with all these allowance policies and fair use agreements and legal documents, etc etc and just say "like it or leave it, this is how it is gonna be". im in rural texas, and so i literally have no other option, theres not even local dialup anymore. I understand all the reasons the way things work like they do, but it would be nice if exede was a little more up front about matters. especially like, retransmission errors count against your total, even when they are our fault (congestion! stop selling more service if you cant meet demand!). make it clear that the data amount you are tallied is not the same as the amount of data you receive and transmit.

ive been wondering how this whole net neutrality thing might apply to exede, as im not sure how they could qualify as neutral in several situations, but this is not a typical internet provider situation, so who knows.
Photo of Bev

Bev, Champion

  • 3287 Posts
  • 1462 Reply Likes
In the simplest terms it IS NOT VIASAT, it's the time out settings your computer and, various servers have for broadband connection, which most servers see satellite as being. It takes too long for either side to respond and, the page does not load.

Some sites are worse than others for this. One that used to work, set the ping to under 300ms, or it timed out. Needless to say, that one cannot be accessed via satellite at all. (Called them to no avail, they won't change it.)

You d have to contact each site and find out what their timeout for a satellite connection is to see if that is the problem with that site, but I suspect it is the sites.
Photo of pyrotuc

pyrotuc

  • 19 Posts
  • 5 Reply Likes
my issue is not with time outs. or latency. when DAPped, certain types of connection are closed instantly, no chance to time out. the connection is unable to properly negotiate.
Photo of Michael Salmons

Michael Salmons

  • 30 Posts
  • 3 Reply Likes
Same here.  While DAP'd,  Will see Connection Reset, Time out for websites, Online games not connecting.  While not DAP'd/LNFZ, everything works as intended.

You can use a VPN to get around the blocks.  A bit slower and some games won't allow VPN's, but most games will work, or atleast get you through til your next data reset.
Photo of Brian Shackelford

Brian Shackelford

  • 848 Posts
  • 244 Reply Likes
Well let's chime in and just make it simple.  Exede doesn't outright block traffic completed, what they do (based on my understanding of how the Accelnet servers and Network QoS is probably set) is to throw DAP'd traffic to a low or lowest priority queue on the system.  This means folks with Evolution, Liberty, or data allowed still for the month get the higher priority queues and probably very, very, very little if any network bandwidth set aside for lower priority traffic.  I would be surprised if you get more than 2 or 3 K throughput when thrown into DAP.  

Again this was a change starting back October of last year.  Up to that point DAP'd users could do all these things that don't work anymore.  Exede's statement to me was that they just hadn't been enforcing the DAP policies in our area previously and started to late last year.  Really?  Nearly 2 years of using it and now suddenly the DAP is in effect?  I was told when we signed on that everything would still work just fine under DAP, except much slower and that was true for about 18-20 months.  Then boom.  

They do extensive "fingerprinting" of traffic to determine type and whether it belongs in the high priority queue or the "good luck" queue.

I could be wrong, however since I have not been able to discuss in depth with any of their network engineers, the above is my best guess.  My experience is that you will NOT be able to get a decent explanation of specifics of how they do traffic shaping and queuing.  Good luck.  VPN will get around it IF you can connect to the VPN service, however it depends on the VPN and I doubt it will be long before those connections are also blocked....er......significantly slowed down to unusable speeds as well.

Learn to live with it or up your plan.  Not trying to be rude, just factual.
(Edited)
Photo of pyrotuc

pyrotuc

  • 19 Posts
  • 5 Reply Likes
my issue with SSH and such is not that it is slowed to the point of unusable, it is immediately and without waiting for any sort of timeout, telling me the connection has been closed. i can change the timeouts on my remote servers to be 10 minutes, and it still takes it a mere fraction of a second to tell me the connection is closed. this isnt throttling, this is blocking.   The only possibility i can think of is that to implement throttling, they are tampering with the data in such a way that the security measures inherent to SSH and SSL are rejecting the connection outright. 

but yeah, it does seem that your options are their way or the highway
Photo of pyrotuc

pyrotuc

  • 19 Posts
  • 5 Reply Likes
except ive gone to check now, and things work. exedes website says im still over 100%, but everything now works, including the things that were finally acknowledged to be 'blocked' in another thread here. ive not done nothing on my end, except complaining on this forum. 
Photo of LorrieL

LorrieL, Champion

  • 647 Posts
  • 219 Reply Likes
Whatever the reason you can't use what you want when DAP'd, is there anyway any of you can afford a data allowance you won't be going over all the time?  This would solve the problem.  I have spent a great deal of time learning how to use as little data as possible, and about things like playlater, so that I can have the cheapest classic exede plan and still do all the things I really want to do, which includes being able to stream/watch lots of movies and tv shows on places like netflix.
If netflix is doing something downright illegal, then I think that is a problem.  If not, then the solution is to do everything you can to spend very little or no time DAP'd.  I found what Brian wrote to be very interesting--didn't know about all this complex stuff about putting customers in lower priority queues, although I think this is a theory Brian has rather than being something he knows for sure?
But regardless, if I were running out of data all the time and getting DAP'd, I would regard that as a problem between my usage and Exede's terms.  Not Exede's "fault", unless it were proven Exede was doing anything illegal, and I have seen nothing yet to indicate that has been proven.  As to why things would change in terms of what you could access while DAP'd before as opposed to now, I would imagine that might have to do with increasing congestion and Exede's doing what it can to keep that problem down, if things like queues are part of what is going on.  I do wish that more people who write on this forum would include where they live, so that if there are any interesting patterns i certain locations it would be apparent. One way to do this would be to sign our posts like this:
LorrieL
Central Virginia
(Edited)
Photo of Brian Shackelford

Brian Shackelford

  • 848 Posts
  • 244 Reply Likes
Lorrie.

I never meant to imply anything Exede was doing was illegal. I also do not have any verifiable information to say exactly how throttling and trafiic control is being done on their network in particular. I can only draw conclusions from many years of working in the industry and how other businesses and companies that I have worked with manage data priority. Also it is interesting to take a look at how the Accelnet servers generally function and what the capabilitied are. In my last post I did indicate I could be wrong. The fact of it all is that the information on how it is done is not detailed anywhere at Exede.

I would love for Exede to post specifics on what / how data is prioritized and managed but I doubt that will occur as it is likely considered very proprietary in regards to their ability to deliver the service they do.

My primary point above was to give a better idea of what is probably happening as well as remind some folks that this is not how it always was and the frustration some users experienced and many who still do when the changes last year took effect. The terms of service clearly allow Exede to do what they are doing and for reasons I understand. That does not change the fact that the service many of us were used to prior to the changes last year is not functionally the same service today once the DAP takes effect. In my case I have made my changes and am fine with my new plan and no longer go over.

The big frustration many are recently having is that Exede seemed to indicate here even on this forum for a long time after the changes occurred that they do not block any traffic specifically but when DAPd some services may not work due to reduced speeds. Well that turns out is not the full picture as very basic things such as telnet or basic smtp and pop3 sessions did not work which are very light on bandwidth if running from a command prompt telnet session. The fact that these things worked on a 28.8 modem and not on Exede when DAPd contradicted what many were told. We were led to believe that everything would still woek when DAPd it would just be at dialup speeds and up to late last year this was the case.

I can't speak to the legality of the putting controls in place that would hinder these types of connections when compared to the net neutrality (which I think is a terrible thing to have passed), but I want people to have a full and educated understanding as to why it is happening and why Exede can indeed say they don't block anything.

Exede serves a market that no one else is serving and I personally am fine with the service I recieve and have nade peace with the changes, but I also believe it is important for Exede to be forthcoming and open about their service when it comes to things like their DAP policies. Their ToS is worded very carefully and supports the prevention of these services whe DAP is in effect.

I meant for these posts to be informative. Hope they help others better understand the service.
Photo of LorrieL

LorrieL, Champion

  • 647 Posts
  • 219 Reply Likes
Hi Brian, sorry I don't think I was clear.  I liked reading that post and what you were saying about possible answers.  I didn't at all think you were saying anything illegal was going on.  One of the reasons I like to read these discussions is because people like you, who know more about technologies than I do post here about that, and I learn new things.  
 I brought up the part about illegal vs.not illegal to reply to people who believe that when they have problems it MUST somehow be Exede doing something wrong.  The internet is so complex and technologies becoming more and more complex, so I am surprised when people jump to the conclusion that any problems they have are due to Exede.  I am even more surprised when people jump to the conclusion that they are being deliberately railroaded/cheated by Exede.  Not saying companies don't do these things sometimes, but unfortunately so many people seem to think this is rampant, when there are many many other possible explanations when things go wrong.  Exede actually has  a good reputation as being one of the best satellite internet providers rather than being a perpetrator of injustice. Not saying that problems on Exede's end don't occur, but I see no reason to think this happens frequently or intentionally.
(Edited)
Photo of Carolyn Barfield

Carolyn Barfield

  • 4 Posts
  • 0 Reply Likes
First, To Lorrie Lencina, I apologize if my "garbage" remark offended you. I moved from a rural area to another rural area, so I am no city dweller looking for the fine city life. I too have been frustrated with how quickly my data usage is depleted. I do no do netflix or watch movies via internet. I do facebook, internet browsing, play games, email... basic simple stuff. But invariably my data usage is exhausted before end of billing cycle. I get email alerts to watch my usage. Then bam... try to go to routine website or game and immediately get Web Page is Not
Available screen. And I do mean immediately, not after a brief or lengthy attempt to connect. No sooner than I go and purchase additional data that same web site is available. Imagine that. Happens once, okay possible hiccup in system. But this has occurred every month for the last 4 months, at least. There is no slowed processing that causes a timed out message. There is no access to sites, period. Why not slow the processing rather than the site is not available. This message never occurs during the billing cycle until data limit exceeded.
Photo of LorrieL

LorrieL, Champion

  • 647 Posts
  • 219 Reply Likes
Carolyn, I apologize if I sound like I don't at all understand your frustrations because I do.  And I don't think you sound at all like you are yearning for "the fine city life". I think the only difference between you and me is that I don't blame Exede.   I do think it is more difficult in general to tolerate the limitations of satellite internet when you have previously had access to much more usage...and esp for anyone who has had unlimited usage in the past. All I have to compare Exede to is aol dial-up and exede comes out ahead every time.
I  don't like the fact that things are changing in certain ways that affect me, like increased customer usage and numbers causing increased congestion  which in turn slow my speeds more than the way it used to be. I manage to avoid getting DAP'd, but If I were DAP'd I most definitely would prefer that everything was just slowed, and that I didn't also lose the ability to connect to certain websites which might be very important to me.  But if I understand what I am reading here, what is going on is Exede is using additional methods (such as what Brian describes in his post above) to restrain usage when customers are over allowance -- for the purpose of keeping the entire area from getting overloaded by usage.  I think it likely is no coincidence that the increase in complaints about congestion problems are coinciding with increased complaints about inability to connect with some sites when DAPd. I and many others have made  complaints to Exede about increased congestion/slowed speeds where I live, and my guess is that such complaints will cause Exede to figure out what they can do to try to limit that problem.  One of those things to do might be to cause even less usage by people who are DAP'd.  When I complained, I actually had thought, well how can exede do anything about increased congestion--except more satellites and that is no immediate solution by any means.  But perhaps there are these other things Exede can do if congestion is getting bad.
 I would be much happier if I had very fast (lightening fast, as so many  commercials say) and unlimited access to the internet.  Oh yes, I also want those great intro bundles if you get cable, phone and the internet all at the same time.  Where I would pay about the same for all that as what I pay monthly for just satellite internet.  
But I choose not to get too worked up about what I cannot change at the moment. and I learned enough about how satellite internet works to understand the unique problems with this technology and why it costs more than some landbased broadband.   For me, trying to live within my meager means, means that I do my utmost never to go over my 10gb month allotted data.  And so far I never have and usually have a few extra gbs at the end of my monthly billing cycle--the last couple of eves I can stream some fun stuff to watch in the eve.  (without having to use playlater to record stuff during LNFZ).  
Photo of Exede Lindsey

Exede Lindsey

  • 1827 Posts
  • 163 Reply Likes
Hello Carolyn, I would be more than happy to review your account to discuss ways to maximize your data. We can check your usage categories, once we figure out where your data is being consumed; we can find ways to help you enjoy the activities you love.  Please send me an email to exedelistens@viasat.com with your account and contact information.  
Photo of Knight Rider

Knight Rider

  • 957 Posts
  • 536 Reply Likes
I get the frustration Carolyn and I agree the way they apply the dap and how much they basically break the internet when you are under dap do suck.  From what I have seen here is that has always been the policy it just hasnt really been enforced up till now.  I guess its getting to where they have to many customers and they have to start enforcing the policy more strictly. Either that or they are trying to make extra money to pay for the new bird being launched next summer and are making people have to buy data once they go over.  Which one or if both are true, only exede knows.  Look online and see if you have the liberty plan as an option and switch to it and that wont be an issue with dap anymore.  Who knows maybe next year after the new Satellite is up and running they will offer the liberty plan more wide spread.
Photo of Mary

Mary

  • 8 Posts
  • 1 Reply Like
I really can not believe how many people would go to bat and defend Exede for clearly blocking sites. Since this seems to be the issue of contention I plan to put an end to it. We will perform a series of tests and once and for all prove that it is blocking and not time-outs.  (Soon I will start my own post for these tests.)
We, the customers, must decide with our wallets what is acceptable and what is not. Exede has pushed me to the end of that acceptability limit.
Yesterday I was put on DAP as I was the last 3 months and my account showed only 10% usage. Which forced me to call the tech for the 3rd month in a row so that I could be told "Oh sorry about that the system is automated and some how it put you in restriction. Which for clarification does not result in time-outs when trying to do things; what is really happening is your modem is resetting your connection. Also know as "Connection reset by peer;" sound familiar? If it were a time-out issue, this would take a while, since most browsers natively support dial-up, but no browser or any software, chat, steam, many games, all included do not support the connection being abruptly reset which is also known as a broken pipe.
So, in my opinion, no customer should be apologizing for poor service, I would not apologize to any other company if they gave me poor service, so why Exede? Because they are a satellite ISP they get special allowances? No, they get that allowance from government subsidies.
Photo of Brian Shackelford

Brian Shackelford

  • 848 Posts
  • 244 Reply Likes
Mary -


The connection reset by peer can very definitely be caused by the added latency on your Exede connection while under DAP. The normal latency on the Exede while under no restriction is usally 600+ms for me. Under DAP this increases quite a bit. The fact it hits so quickly is probably due to the way Accelnet server is passing the traffic to the server you are trying to access. The problem I believe is the way traffic is "shaped" or queued based on your plan and whether you are in DAP or not. Please google Accelnet servers and see some of the things that can be done and understand that Exede (and others) used this technology to control network bandwidth.


I am certainly not defending Exede's perceived blocking of some services as this (as stated before) has not always been the case. It really kicked in late last year as they introduced new plans. My guess is in order to meet the Bandwidth demands brought by the new plans and the new subscribers, they had to significantly change the way the network was controlled. This all corresponded to the change in the TOS and Policies.


Net Neutrality will probably NOT apply to Exede as they block .... I mean limit .... the bandwidth to all services equally. Net Neutrality is meant to prevent a provider from say give Netflix better access to their network subscribers than say Amazon. In this case Exede equally throttles traffic depending on the plan you have agreed to sign up for. Again I am not defending or condemning, just laying out what I interpret it to mean.


You say we need to make a statement with our wallets, yet the fact of the matter is nearly everyone who uses Exede has no other options than Hughesnet or we would not be using Exede. I have 100 Mbps connection at my office that costs just a little more than what I pay for my Classic 15 plan. I know someone in Chattanooga getting a Gigabit internet for about what is paid for the Classic 25 plan with Exede. If they were options here I would jump on that opprtunity. Unfortunatley I do not, so I must make do.


Your bigger issue is getting thrown into DAP when you haven't used your data for the month. That is another problem in and of itself. I do encourage you to do the testing you are referring to and look forward to seeing the results.
(Edited)
Photo of Mary

Mary

  • 8 Posts
  • 1 Reply Like
Yes sorry I did not state timing here. The timing for the connection to be reset by peer is 5ms, this sort of timing would require it to be the modem, as a response from the satellite would take a minimum of 240ms. Also there is further evidence of what Exceed is doing as they block specific requests with different headers; IE they actually identify SSH.
I do understand how bad latencies can be and how that would result in a time-out, but I have actually tweaked my time-outs to account for the satellite delays. Also when running a script to test it is easy to see the difference between a time-out and a broken-pipe.
I also understand what it is to be stuck with few options, that is how I wound up in this boat. But I really hate that they further stick it to us by locking us in a 2 year deal; I should have known better. Any time some one wants to lock you in; it is because it is too good to be true for long. My fault for being short sighted.

Also I will get around to writing the test, as I must suffer through many more months of this; and each time I get DAPd I work more on the tests. But they are not ready for sharing yet.
Yes I get DAPd about 3 times a month, a phone call fixes it, but getting DAPd for no reason is stupid. But they just keep telling me; that the automated system must have messed up.
Photo of pyrotuc

pyrotuc

  • 19 Posts
  • 5 Reply Likes
at least the issue i was talking about, there is absolutely 0% chance its due to a timeout. after mulling it over, i decided they are intentionally blocking it, as SSH can be used to create secure tunnels, which could be used like a VPN, preventing their deep packet inspection from being able to prejudice your data. i sure wish theyd come out and say it. i administer several systems, and i do this mostly through SSH, and itd be nice to have known ahead of time that this wasnt an error.
i incorrectly stated that it had fixed itself, i forgot that i had..well.. gotten creative. wheres theres a will, theres a way. 

exede is seriously luckily that most erm.. 'power users' run from them. if they had a large population of capable and motivated folks angry with them, itd be no time before there was enough proof for a class action lawsuit. im not sure if they are corrupt or incompetent, but the system does not run according to the ways outlined in the legal documents.  it just doesnt. 

i go round with myself about it, but, it doesnt really matter. i dont have any other option than satellite. and if i remember correctly, all satellite internet, is just rebranding of viasat. i expect that that if one decides to stop doing business with you for security reasons, they all do.

in any case, expect to see revisions in the legal documents within the next 6 months. just a prediction.
Photo of Mary

Mary

  • 8 Posts
  • 1 Reply Like
You are right; hopefully I will get the scripts good enough to share to start building some proof before running away myself at the end of this contract.... only a few more months left...
Sorry that you are stuck pyrotuc; but glad that you are creative too... although it gets old having to outsmart my ISP all of the time.

This conversation is no longer open for comments or replies.