SpaceX launches 60 more internet satellites

  • 1
  • Idea
  • Updated 3 weeks ago
  • Not Planned
Competition (called StarLink) for Satellite internet gets closer to reality..

»www.cnn.com/2019/11/11/t ··· dex.html
Photo of wm4bama

wm4bama, Champion

  • 427 Posts
  • 274 Reply Likes
  • thankful

Posted 1 month ago

  • 1
Photo of Homeskillet

Homeskillet

  • 367 Posts
  • 143 Reply Likes
I wonder how much money they will spend before the system is operational and can provide residential service?
Photo of Voyager

Voyager

  • 471 Posts
  • 142 Reply Likes
Only 499 launches to go!  At the current rate of 2 launches per year they will be fully operational in only 250 years.  LOL.
Photo of Admiral Korbohuta

Admiral Korbohuta

  • 125 Posts
  • 58 Reply Likes
Nah. They plan on increasing the frequency of launches dramatically next year. These first few are really more for testing than anything else.
Photo of ExSatUser

ExSatUser

  • 1610 Posts
  • 937 Reply Likes
20 launches per year is awful agressive
Photo of Admiral Korbohuta

Admiral Korbohuta

  • 125 Posts
  • 58 Reply Likes
Gonna have to be if they want to get 10,000 satellites into space.
Photo of Voyager

Voyager

  • 471 Posts
  • 142 Reply Likes
In 1990, Teledesic was formed to deliver satellite-based Internet service. Cellular pioneer Craig McCaw, Microsoft co-founder Bill Gates and Saudi Prince Alwaleed bin Talal were early investors and Boeing was both an investor and the prime contractor. Teledesic hoped to offer global Internet connectivity using a constellation of 840 satellites in low-Earth orbit (LEO) at an altitude of 700 km. (The plan was scaled back to 288 satellites in 1997).

Teledesic failed.

Photo of Admiral Korbohuta

Admiral Korbohuta

  • 125 Posts
  • 58 Reply Likes
This is 2019 and we're talking about Elon Musk and SpaceX. Very different scenario.
Photo of Voyager

Voyager

  • 471 Posts
  • 142 Reply Likes
That is true, but it took Tesla 14 years to get to an electric car that was reasonably affordable.  And electric cars have been around for 100 years.  To think that 4,000 or more LEO satellites will be launched and operating at a cost that is competitive with other internet services in less than 5 years is a pure pipe dream.  And Elon is known for making claims well beyond what he can deliver.  I suspect in 10-20 years we might have a functioning LEO satellite system, but not in 5 years or less.
Photo of Old Labs

Old Labs

  • 323 Posts
  • 282 Reply Likes
No problem if Elon can get a successful Dorothy IX launch -  as he noted in his twitter feed the last test launch suffered a RUD (rapid unexpected disassembly) on striking a cow. With a successful test, however, they should be able to deploy thousands with each Dorothy IX Heavy launch... weather permitting of course.

          
(Edited)
Photo of Terry Hill

Terry Hill

  • 188 Posts
  • 65 Reply Likes
They plan to start mid next year with six to eight more launches till they can start giving service and 24 more launches to go global. I'm sure there will be delays but lets hope Elon can deliver. And he has been testing with the U.S. military aircraft with 610 mbps while flying. We will all have to wait and see what happens.     

https://spacenews.com/spacex-plans-to-start-offering-starlink-broadband-services-in-2020/
(Edited)
Photo of Ron Frank

Ron Frank

  • 320 Posts
  • 205 Reply Likes
10,000 sats is the dream network.  It will take much less to become functional, but the best part of this system is it is expandable, if a certain area becomes congested they can set another sat in the grid to handle more coverage,

This is 2019 (for another 50 days or so) and not only has technology advanced exponentially in the last 10 - 20 years, the rate of advancement is also way more than it was 10 - 20 years ago.  Things that once took years to develop now take months, and things that once took months now take days.
Photo of ExSatUser

ExSatUser

  • 1610 Posts
  • 937 Reply Likes
Hey Ron. How is Hughesnet doing for you? I think we all are frustrated by the limitations on not having good, low latency, unlimited high speed internet in the country and are desperate for something better to come along!
Photo of Ron Frank

Ron Frank

  • 320 Posts
  • 205 Reply Likes
ExSatUser so far still happy.  Still working on the data issue but its not their fault.  Data reset this morning and still had 25% left  BIG IMPROVEMENT!   Its 6PM now ... peak usage time and yea Im a lil slow  snow, cold and cloudy, and Im running around 13.2 down, sure beats "up to 12" and not seeing over 5 during light usage.

NO REGRETS LEAVING VIASAT!

I am following the StarLink SpaceX deal though.  I feel it is the future, not just for guys like us, but for the industry.  I am hoping for a "reasonable" price it will provide me unlimited and allow me to cut the cord with DirecTV, but I also in the not so distant future see it as the next evolution of smart phones, no more land based towers ... no more dead spots, no more dropped calls.
Photo of Voyager

Voyager

  • 471 Posts
  • 142 Reply Likes
I agree that LEO is the future of satellite.  I simply think that the future for those in rural areas is still closer to 10 years away than 2 years as some seem to think.  My cooperative is estimating 6 years to complete our fiber roll-out and I am unfortunately in the 6th year area, but I still think I will have fiber before I have LEO.
Photo of Ron Frank

Ron Frank

  • 320 Posts
  • 205 Reply Likes
Voyager, there is a big difference between fully functional and "up and running"  For that matter it is technically "up and running" NOW,  YES Elon Musk has already sent the first Tweet using it!  I believe it was something to the effect of "Wow, its working!"  LOL  Right now the government is testing it, with what I hear are excellent results, 610 Mbps in a moving plane?!?!

I agree there may be some Beta testers hooked in possibly as early as next year but it will still be limited and will probably be years working bugs out etc.   Last I heard they dont even have a viable base/modem for it yet.

I would love to get in as a Beta tester!  But then I dont know if I would qualify with my limited usage, but if they want an average Joe in a very rural area they can gladly PICK ME!  PICK ME! 
Photo of ExSatUser

ExSatUser

  • 1610 Posts
  • 937 Reply Likes
Not as if Exede didn't have a lot of issues when it came online too. If was probably over a year before it became stable.
Photo of GabeU

GabeU, Champion

  • 2248 Posts
  • 1370 Reply Likes
When I hear 10,000 satellites, or even 30.000, as mentioned, the first words that come to mind are space junk.   
Photo of GabeU

GabeU, Champion

  • 2248 Posts
  • 1370 Reply Likes
When I hear 10,000 satellites, or even 30.000, as mentioned, the first words that come to mind are space junk.   
Photo of Voyager

Voyager

  • 471 Posts
  • 142 Reply Likes
So, if one senator stays in Washington, D.D. during Christmas break you would consider the senate to be “up and running?”  You must be in marketing!  LOL.

I would hope they could get 610 Mbps to one airplane.  That means 10 airplanes in that area would get 61 Mbps each.  Figure 100 passengers on each plane and they will get a whopping .61 Mbps each.  Yippee!
Photo of Ron Frank

Ron Frank

  • 320 Posts
  • 205 Reply Likes
Despite your feeble attempt at sarcasm, YES!  Especially if it is YOUR senator.  It is obviously not working at capacity, or providing 100% of its desired operations, but upon arrival of the senators it is a functional entity, as opposed to, designs, approvals, funding, ground breaking, construction, etc.  If you are restoring a car it is a milestone when it is "up and running" you turn the key, it starts, and goes down the road under its own power.  It may be years completing the detail work but it is still "up and running" regardless.

610 Mbps, at 300 MPH the entire area of coverage with no loss?  Yea that impresses me.  How do you assume 610 Mbps is the limit of the beam and not the receiver or device?  It might even be the limit of the program used for the testing.  Now lets suppose 100 people on an airplane all have laptops and all are downloading the latest version of Windows all at the same time (SMH) whats wrong with 0.61 Mbps?  Thats higher than what Viasat expected me to run on half the time and called it "high speed".  Much of the time I was below 0.5 and peak usage under restriction it was more 0.05.
Photo of johnny c

johnny c

  • 374 Posts
  • 159 Reply Likes
Maybe available in late 2020 to some customers.  Anyway for those that won't get a ground based ISP under the governments program to bring everybody on line this will offer another alternative.

https://www.space.com/spacex-starlink-satellite-internet-service-2020.html
(Edited)
Photo of ExSatUser

ExSatUser

  • 1610 Posts
  • 937 Reply Likes
Speaking of that. The government's expectation is a minimum of 25Mbps down and 3 up. That would be the average of course. Viasat cant deliver that nationwide today. More pressure is coming down if you cant deliver that, no grant money will be coming, and Viasat likes its grant money (what business wouldn't).
Photo of Bradley

Bradley

  • 1356 Posts
  • 443 Reply Likes
Viasat, like a few other companies, would just claim they provide those speeds. Heck, they JD it on their website for a while if I remember correctly. Or they claim they will with the three Viasat 3 sats. Nothing will change.

LEO constellations will happen, but the government should have mandated hardline as a utility 10 years ago.
Photo of Ron Frank

Ron Frank

  • 320 Posts
  • 205 Reply Likes
A utility?  Out here we went 3 days without power.  It was a pole transformer off my neighbors driveway, a couple hour fix, they postponed it to last because despite the entire ridge being out ... it was "only" 27 customers.  Every other outage that storm took precedence.  The phone company asks every year that the state not force them to provide landline phone service out here complaining the revenue doesnt justify the maintenance costs.  The state declares the cell service out here is spotty at best so landline phone is a "necessity"

The point is ... IF they were FORCED to provide it, who would foot the bill?  Who would pay to maintain it?  How much would they bill us for it?  How reliable would it be?

Wifes parents live 4 1/2 miles from us.  DSL stops at their place.  Phone company says they are lucky to have it being so far from the "hub".  The 4 1/2 miles between us there are only 7 houses.

LEO is much more expensive, yet much more cost effective in the long run.
Photo of Voyager

Voyager

  • 471 Posts
  • 142 Reply Likes
How else would you have a utility prioritize outage restoration?  I believe prioritizing repairs so as to get the greatest number of customers back in service the quickest is the best algorithm.

I agree that government forced service would be a disaster.  I suspect that for many rural areas LEO may well be the most economical solution.  Time will tell as it will cost a pile of money to get enough satellites in space to cover the rural areas of the US.  I am very curious to see what the cost will be for say 100 Mbps service via LEO.
Photo of ExSatUser

ExSatUser

  • 1610 Posts
  • 937 Reply Likes
I would pay $150/month, and it would still be cheaper than Viasat with lower latency and truly unlimited?
Photo of GabeU

GabeU, Champion

  • 2248 Posts
  • 1370 Reply Likes
If it were unlimited, and if they could guarantee a speed within a certain threshold (barring weather and unforeseen tech issues, of course), I might go with paying that much.  I could cut my DirecTV bill by quite a bit to cover the difference if I could stream normally.  
Photo of Bradley

Bradley

  • 1356 Posts
  • 443 Reply Likes
$150 a month for true unlimited and low latency would be a steal. Internet you can barely use and TV cost that much to anyone now.
Photo of Voyager

Voyager

  • 471 Posts
  • 142 Reply Likes
I agree.  Compared to what I have now, I would pay $150 for 25 Mbps speed with less than 50 ms latency and NO data caps.  However, once fiber gets here I will have 100 Mbps (both directions!), probably 10 ms latency and a cost of probably less than $90/month.  The current price is $70, but 5-6 years of inflation will likely take that to $90 or so.
Photo of Bradley

Bradley

  • 1356 Posts
  • 443 Reply Likes
I’m surprised fiber is that high. I’ll say I now pay around $105 for 400mbps and tv (125+ channels) with cable. Parents pay around $40 for 25mbps fiber.

That upload speed would be unreal.
(Edited)
Photo of Admiral Korbohuta

Admiral Korbohuta

  • 125 Posts
  • 58 Reply Likes
I'm fairly confident that at least one of these LEO companies will become viable and start offering service. Now whether that service is a better value than current satellite providers is the real question.
Photo of ExSatUser

ExSatUser

  • 1610 Posts
  • 937 Reply Likes
Value? But if it really works without the negatives of current satellite internet I think they have a market even if similar cost.
Photo of Voyager

Voyager

  • 471 Posts
  • 142 Reply Likes
@Bradley. High?  This is a screaming deal for a rural area with 5.5 customers per mile on average.  DSL is $40 for 1-3 Mbps service (0.5 or less upload speed).  Cable is $65 for 25 - 50 Mbps (4-6 upload and speeds are highly variable with cable).  I have the cheapest satellite plan now, but still pay $60 something for a Liberty 12 plan that gives me 12 Mbps for 2-3 days each month and then basically DSL speed (1-5 Mbps) for the balance of the month with upload speeds about 1/3 of download.  So $70 for consistent 100 Mbps bidirectional is a screaming deal.  And no weather outages as with satellite.  I expect even LEO will have this problem, but that remains to be seen.
Photo of Voyager

Voyager

  • 471 Posts
  • 142 Reply Likes
@ExSat. Ya think?  If LEO has the exact same throughput, but without the latency, that alone would get them a substantial market at the same price point.  If the LEO companies provide capable customer service, that will get them a substantial market at the same price point.  And if they offer better throughput, low latency, better weather tolerance and solid customer service, they will put GEO satellite internet out of business within a year.

One of the main competitive advantages our cooperative has is superb customer service.  Our members continually tell us how bad their ISP is at customer service (I won’t mention names, but it isn’t hard to find out who serves north central PA).  Most of our members would switch to our internet service just to get access to our 7x24 LOCAL call center staffed by people who actually know the area even if they got the same performance at a similar price.
Photo of Admiral Korbohuta

Admiral Korbohuta

  • 125 Posts
  • 58 Reply Likes
ExSat, if the price is similar to current satellite services and performance and data caps are more in line for current demand, then it is a better value. If those criteria aren't met then it wouldn't be.
Photo of Homeskillet

Homeskillet

  • 367 Posts
  • 143 Reply Likes
I think most ISPs usually lean toward poor customer service and some are down right evil. First there was AOL and their trial CDs that basically infected your computer with malware that tried to block you from using another ISP. DSL in it's heyday wasn't bad where I was at, then I moved on to Charter Cable, they were atrocious. They never wanted to fess up to service interruptions and always wanted to blame the customer and get you to take a service call from their fleet on your dime when they were the problem. Hold times were long for tech support while you were bombarded with sales pitches for their other services.

Then of course for me their was a half dozen years of Viasat in Central Virginia.Verizon Wireless isn't the greatest, but Viasat set the bar so low I find it tolerable.
Photo of Ron Frank

Ron Frank

  • 320 Posts
  • 205 Reply Likes
WOW!  I love the comparison of cable, DSL and satellite prices and quality  I can do that here too!
Viasat  "up to"12 Mbps $50 - $150 a month depending on plan and you are LUCKY                 to see 5 Mbps with data caps
Hughes  "up to" 25 Mbps  $50 - $150 a month depending on plan steady between
               10 - 40 Mbps with data caps
Cable    NON EXISTENT
DSL      NON EXISTENT

My point had nothing to do with the power companys "prioritization" standards, the POINT is hardline internet will be THE EXACT SAME THING!  I also see "no weather outages as with satellite"  LMAO  In a severe storm my "weather related satellite outage" on average is under 10 mins due to extreme cloud cover.  Hardline outages of any utility run hours, days, even weeks and 95% are "weather related" ... tornado, hurricane, lightning, snow, ice, wind.  The other 5% are equipment failure, animals, motor vehicle accidents, and "other not specified".  The solution would be a buried line which in many areas is simply not cost effective,

LEO has no land based infrastructure susceptible to damage, and serves tens of thousands not simply 25 customers in a 50 square mile area so it wont be subject to repair prioritization based on revenue. 

If I can get 25 Mbps consistently with true unlimited data and streaming video for the same price, IM IN!

The fastest internet in the world aint worth nothing if you cant use it!
Photo of Voyager

Voyager

  • 471 Posts
  • 142 Reply Likes
So “ground stations” aren’t “land based.”  That is interesting...

(Edited)
Photo of Voyager

Voyager

  • 471 Posts
  • 142 Reply Likes
One large problem with LEO is that one EMP from a rogue nation like North Korea could take out a huge part of the constellation in an instant.  Optical fiber is immune to EMP.  And if you think that replacement of defective satellites won’t be based on the revenue potential of each satellite, you are quite naive.  Satellites that serve sparsely populated areas will get the lowest priority for replacement and very likely would get shifted to a different orbit if needed to better serve more highly populated areas as needed.  Just as with land-based systems, repairs and upgrades will absolutely be prioritized based on the per satellite revenue.
Photo of Admiral Korbohuta

Admiral Korbohuta

  • 125 Posts
  • 58 Reply Likes
Dude, have you been reading John Matherson novels?
Photo of Ron Frank

Ron Frank

  • 320 Posts
  • 205 Reply Likes
WHO CARES if the cable is immune if everything connected to it isnt?  The cable doesnt "do" anything it is merely a conductor.

How do you come up with prioritization based on revenue to a satellite grid?   Landlines coming to my house serve MY HOUSE, my signal from a satellite serves thousands.  First off area of coverage is greater so there is a better mixture of use and a similar balance of revenue on most beams.  Yea I am in the sticks, but my "beam" could cover 6 or more cities around me, my satellite many more still.  Hardline is fixed.  Depending where the problem lies they have a definite number of customers affected and can base the priority based on that info.
Photo of Voyager

Voyager

  • 471 Posts
  • 142 Reply Likes
It is hard to explain things to someone with so limited an understanding of the systems in question.  LEO satellites don’t sit in one spot.  They orbit the earth at a rate far faster than the earth’s rotation.  It is almost certain that the satellite constellation orbits will be designed to provide much denser satellite coverage for parts of the world that have the highest user density.  And when satellites begin to fail, and they will with 10,000+ in the constellation, you can bet that the replacements launched will go first into orbits that provide the most coverage of high user areas to maximize revenue.

That is not fundamentally different than how an electric utility prioritizes their service restoration activities.  If you can send a crew to a location where 2 hours work restores 1,000 customers rather than a location where 2 hours work restores 10 customers, any logical person will prioritize the former location above the latter.

And LEO satellites need a lot of ground stations, especially in high density areas as most satellite users won’t be talking to other satellite users, but will need to get onto the land based internet as quickly as possible.  And these ground stations will also have outages and their restoration will also be prioritized by the density of traffic carried.

Constellation design for non-GEO satellites is not trivial.  https://www.astrome.co/blogs/the-art-of-satellite-constellation-design-what-you-need-to-know/ 
Photo of James

James

  • 18 Posts
  • 1 Reply Like
Muh elon
Muh specexx
Muh duuurrrrrrsssslllaaaa
Muh musk
https://tirol.orf.at/stories/3021270/


Quick rundown:
April 10, 2019
Tesla catches fire
Crews try to cool it for 3 days
Relocated for security purpose 
Tesla says they will dispose of it but don't 
Tesla homepage says ÖCAR Automobil Recycling will get rid of it 
ÖCAR has no permission to handle Tesla wrecks
Tyrolan waste disposal companies refuse to deal with the car
DAKA expert cannot deal with such a big lithium battery without knowing chemical mixture
Tesla keeps it a secret for competitive edge
The fluid that cooled the car is a dangerous poisonous mixture but sought-after 
Montana University has secured probes to find out the ingredients of mixture 
Professor says he doesn't know how to dispose of car or its 600kg battery 
Professor criticizes Tesla for inventing a product without thinking about its disposal 
Tesla still has done NOTHING about it

BUT THEY ARE GOOD FOR THE ENVIRONMENT!


Photo of GabeU

GabeU, Champion

  • 2223 Posts
  • 1356 Reply Likes
Which has zip to do with SpaceX.  
Photo of James

James

  • 18 Posts
  • 1 Reply Like
Yea cause a CEO over Tesla and SpaceX differentiates in product liability department. For all we know LEO is a super carcinogenic weapon. Let us forget ethics though, YAY LEO!
Photo of Ron Frank

Ron Frank

  • 320 Posts
  • 204 Reply Likes
"It is hard to explain things to someone with so limited an understanding of the systems in question."

What do you not understand?   The satellites orbit.  They cover more than my house, more than my street, more than my county or state.  INCREASING THE REVENUE ON MY SYSTEM!!!  The more area covered the higher priority my service gets restored!

OF COURSE IT MAKES SENSE to handle a loss of service to 1000 customers ahead of 20 customers.  Thats why I would rather be on a system serving 50,000 customers!
Photo of Admiral Korbohuta

Admiral Korbohuta

  • 123 Posts
  • 56 Reply Likes
James, part of technological discovery involves failure. Without failures and corrections we wouldn't be where we are today.
Photo of ExSatUser

ExSatUser

  • 1562 Posts
  • 923 Reply Likes
Is it the weekend?
Photo of Admiral Korbohuta

Admiral Korbohuta

  • 123 Posts
  • 56 Reply Likes
It's Friday!
Photo of ExSatUser

ExSatUser

  • 1562 Posts
  • 923 Reply Likes
Close enough!
Photo of Voyager

Voyager

  • 469 Posts
  • 141 Reply Likes
@Ron You seem to think that every satellite orbits past your house.  That ain’t so.  The density of satellites in a constellation does not have to be uniform as with GPS.  It can be very dense in some locations and barely enough to see two at a time in other locations.  So, the revenue per square mile of earth surface is not uniform just as it is not uniform with land based systems.
Photo of Homeskillet

Homeskillet

  • 341 Posts
  • 136 Reply Likes
If LEO satellites of which I know nothing about orbit at a speed different than the Earths rotation & there are going to be 10's of 1,000's of them out there what keeps them from being a traffic hazard to manned space travel?
Photo of Voyager

Voyager

  • 471 Posts
  • 142 Reply Likes
I wonder if political pressure may become the biggest obstacle at some point.

 https://www.thesun.co.uk/tech/10384295/elon-musk-spacex-starlink-block-view-stars/
Photo of GabeU

GabeU, Champion

  • 2247 Posts
  • 1370 Reply Likes
It wouldn't surprise me.  Thousands of additional things floating around up there is bound to cause issues.  
Photo of Admiral Korbohuta

Admiral Korbohuta

  • 124 Posts
  • 58 Reply Likes
This has been discussed before. I believe the demand for better internet to the under served masses will supersede political obstacles.
Photo of ExSatUser

ExSatUser

  • 1610 Posts
  • 937 Reply Likes
Dont count on it. People protest about anything, including wind power because it obstructs a view and/or kills birds.
Photo of Admiral Korbohuta

Admiral Korbohuta

  • 124 Posts
  • 58 Reply Likes
Supposedly they have a plan to deal with all the extra satellites in space. Last I read though is that nearly a third of all the satellites currently in space are "dead" and basically floating junk.
Photo of ExSatUser

ExSatUser

  • 1610 Posts
  • 937 Reply Likes
We already saw what's coming. Gravity!
Photo of Oliver

Oliver

  • 324 Posts
  • 104 Reply Likes
That's why I didn't marry her!