Finally Cancelled

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  • Updated 8 months ago
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Well after 15 months of the most HORRIBLE Internet service i'm outta here $133 a month for internet that was equivalent to dial up connection at times. They had more excuses about poor performance it was comical at times. Sorry sir it's overcast, sorry it's raining out, sorry sir it's sunny out what ********. and I don't know how they get away with offering unlimited data and then set data limits where they throttle you back to unusable connection speeds. Oh yea and the we have free un-throttled access between 2AM and 6AM daily. Really?? So now I wait for the return equipment box to show up and I'll be done with you viasat. Oh yea I asked what about the dish on my roof their reply was I can keep it but I have to return the LNB. or pay a service call of $95 to have someone come out to remove it for me. I opted out of the removal. I think I'm just going to stencil "SUCKS" under the viasat logo so every passer by can get a look at it, sort of free negative advertising for viasat. Buyer Beware steer clear of viasat. Hopefully Elon Musk will put them out of business with hie upcoming low orbit satellite internet access. I cant wait.
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Jack

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  • Glad I'm outta here!

Posted 9 months ago

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Diana, Viasat Employee

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Hello Jack, Thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to express your grievances on how our internet service did not meet with your expectations. I'm sorry our satellite internet service did not work for you.  
(Edited)
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AZgl1800

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I wish our local power company 'PSO' Oklahoma, would do that, unfortunately, they are owned by 'AEP'.
our area has lousy internet sources, but there are 2 Radio RF Line of Sight in the area, so they think that is enough I suppose.... but, get out of town about 3 miles and kiss Line of Sight goodbye.  We have 6,000 square miles in our county alone.... 99% of it does not have any internet.  So, it is look at the sky, or a cellular solution.
I recently learned of www.OliveIP.com and honestly, I wish I had known of it before I went to ViaSat, as it is just as fast, and even faster in the evening hours... I compare ViaSat at 6:30 PM to my Verizon MiFi JetPack and Verizon is 5 to 10 times faster than ViaSat...   it is a shame, that Verizon will NOT let me have Unlimited internet on the JetPack, when OliveIP provides the same exact device and will provide me Unlimited internet for $90/month at speeds up to, 50Mbps ( if the cell tower is close enough ).... 
Right now, I can get 25Mbps on my JetPack as I type this.... just can't afford the Shared Data Plan that we currently are signed up for and they will NOT let me have more than 15gB/month... period...
I'm thinking of cutting Shared Data back to 2gB and and getting the OliveIP service and maybe drop ViaSat...
right now, wishful thinking, my duaghter abhors changes... she gripped and gripped when we had to reprogram our WiFi devices, 2 printers, 3 cellphones, TVs, etc....
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Voyager

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Why did you have to reprogram your WiFi devices?
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TheCatWillStrike

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You don't need a business account if you aren't allowing customers on it. Like if you're an ebay/amazon seller I highly doubt you are going to use a business plan.
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xode0000, Champion

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I had a 15 gig plan until I ran out of internet 2 weeks into it renewing. The plan states you can run a small business off 15gigs!!!
You can, provided you use your data wisely and not waste it.  I personally know that because I've done something similar myself.  Contrary to what all of the Viasat naysayers keep claiming, you also don't need a lot of speed to run a business.  Even in Liberty pass, you can do just fine, IF you turn off ALL of the data and bandwidth draining crud that inevitably comes turned on with all of the browsers and OSes these days.
(Edited)
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VeteranSatUser, Champion

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The airing of grievances. One of the joys of Festivus!!!
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AZgl1800

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Well, I am in my 6th week of ViaSat and at the lowest level. Being an IT tech since 1958, I kind of knew in advance what to expect. I am monitoring the service with Net UpTime Monitor so I can track exactly what is going on.  The 1st full month of service, we went over the 35gB hilltop by 9gB... we never did get throttled back.  I watch videos at 240p on my laptop, my daughter watches NetFlix on her Kindle and usually 2 or 3 movies per night.... we are both Night Owls though, and enjoy having speeds of 35 to 45Mbps during the night time hours...  We tried to watch one movie on the Smart TV, a NetFlix and with a 44" screen, it is too pixelated to really enjoy it.... so we don't do that anymore.  What we do want, and enjoy, is access to the internet for browsing.... I participate in forums, am a moderator of a motorcycle forum, member of https://forums.linuxmint.com/ and Facebook also.... several other motorcycle forums... all of them load an run at 'full speed' for a browser experience.....  So far, we are okay with the ViaSat.... I track the speeds thru the day, and they are as what I would expect for Network Congestion.  slower between 5 pm to 10 pm, and then it is like the light switch was turned off for the "other guys", and I am left with a Full Speed internet experience..... IF, you expect to watch TV all day long, you will hit the Data Cap in a hurry.... it is a satellite folks, not a Fiber Optic cable..... I used to have Cox Cable and that was really nice.... but we are Rural now, and that is not in our future.  all in all, ViaSat is great... John


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AZgl1800

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Steve Saunders Goldwing Forum at www.GoldwingFacts.com
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Voyager

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I knew it was one of the Wing forums given your handle, but I know of at least three so I wasn’t sure which one. I participated for a while in that one when I was looking at the new Wing, but haven’t been active since deciding that the Wing, in its current form, wasn’t the right choice for my wife and I. I keep watching it though to see where Honda may take it. Now if spring would just get here. :-)
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AZgl1800

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The 2018 Goldwing sure is attracting a lot of Negative Comments....
and at the same time, it is getting a lot of Rave Reviews...

You just can't Please Everyone, All of the time.
The lack of baggage space is probably the #1 complaint.

The new DCT automatic transmission would for me, IF, money was no object, would be of interest.
I just purchased recently a little Piaggio MP3 250cc scooter with Automatic transmission.
I have to say, that I am really enjoying that little scooter for around town locally.
It is NOT, though a good touring bike at all, at speeds over 40 mph, there is just too much wind noise in my ears and pushing against my helmet.

But, for longer trips of over 10 miles, I will stick with my big bike, the GL1800 which has Cruise Control,
and "Air Conditioning" tee hee...... I do love to "lie" to folks who see my bike and ask if the air vents are for Air Conditioner cold air..... I just say "yup" it works a charm. and go on.  :)

(Edited)
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Voyager

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True enough. I am not saying the Wing is a bad machine and it will work for lots of folks, especially the solo riders like cruiseman, but it doesn’t work for my wife and I. I will not tow a trailer and we travel multiple weeks at a time and need at least 130 liters of storage. My LT barely has enough storage and fuel capacity and the new Wing is much less than my LT, so I am having my seat remade by Russell in preparation for my Alaska ride this year. And the LT will soldier on a few more years. At 12 years ad 74,000 miles, it has some road ahead.

I like to impress folks with the one button center stand deployment. Their eyes get really big, particularly Wing and Harley riders. LOL.
(Edited)
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AZgl1800

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Come next March, my daughter (44) and I (75) are going to tour down thru Arkansas, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Florida and from there, we don't know where we will go.  We have a 26' Weekend Warrior Toy Hauler, and the little Piaggio MP3 fits in the garage perfect.  Last June, we hauled the GL1800 in the RV up to Colorado Springs, CO.... found out the 1800 is way to heavy for that rig, it over-balanced and wig wagged bad.... the first stop-over, I told her we have got to move things forward and get this rig under control.  So, the spare tire, all baggage was moved into the shower/bathroom ( 3' behind the hitch ball ).... that helped, but not enough.  The next stop-over in Hays, KS my little pea brain woke up and said (hey bud, fill up the Black water, and Grey water tanks). and that did the trick.... that added 120 gallons of water at 8#/gallon and it offset the bike's weight, and the RV rig towed good from then on....

I have learned a lot since that trip last June, heh heh.  bought the scooter, leave the 1800 home.  Mounted the Spare Tire on the hitch behind the propane tanks, a neighbor gave me a set of dumb bell weights, total of 100# and I hung them off the RV's frame about 1' behind the hitch ball.... now it will tow at 60 mph and nary a wiggle.

My son lives in Dawsonville, GA and we will stop over there for a few days, friends in Valdosta, GA said to "come on down" so we get another over night stop there, and then the motorcycle Meet 'n Greet being held in Homosassa, Florida will entertain us for a week... From there, we will just toss a coin and see where we want to go....  This will be her last chance to make a tour like this, she has a job that needs her back in April....

I am lucky to have her with me, her mom passed two years ago, and it would be very lonesome here without my daughter here with me.





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Jack

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You must be on viasat-2 satellite. I was on Viasat-1 with no hopes of switching over. They said don’t worry we’re switching accounts over to Sat-2 That should free up some bandwidth on Sat-1. Well that never happened it just got progressively worse.
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Stephen Rice, Champion

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AZgl1800 is a Viasat shill.
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fmj77

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I'm on Viasat 1 as well and have very few problems except for the occasional slowdown due to congestion. After 10+ years on satellite I know what to expect from the service and have learned how to manage data. Sounds to me like Jack had some hardware or technical issues if his service was consistently bad.
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Wyngs

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I'm happy, but maybe that's because I make no heavy demands on the system. I get my movies via snail mail disc from Netflix. Although it has been years, I clearly remember dial-up - and that memory still has me giving thanks for satellite.
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Voyager

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I remember back when all I had was a 9600 dial-up modem. I am a heavy used, 3-4 GB/day, but I am fairly happy with Viasat so far. I would say it is about equal to good DSL. I had bad DSL so Viasat is a little better than my bad DSL. It is much better while under the data cap. Once I exceeded the cap, it became about the same as DSL during the day. However, it is much worse than DSL during prime time. Given that I will spend 30-50% of the month over the data cap, I am still trying to decide if it is better than DSL in aggregate, particularly given that it costs twice as much as DSL. However, I signed a 24 month contract so it will be what it will be for 23 more months and I am hoping for something better by then. Once my electric cooperative gets their fiber deployed, that will be where I’m at as nothing compares to fiber.
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GabeU, Champion

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Ugh, the dialup days.  When Windows updates reached 10MB and above dialup became inadequate, at least for me. 

Unbelievably, my folks still had dialup until August 2016, but it got to the point that my stepfather could barely even get on Facebook, so they took the satellite internet plunge.  They had no idea what they were missing.  The coffee break coinciding with waiting for a web page to fully load ended.    
(Edited)
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xode0000, Champion

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I recently had the misfortune of encountering someone wanting to complain about Viasat.  Even though that person admitted their DirectTV was the cause of them always going over their data limit, and even having gone over their data limit, they admitted their speeds were still 60 Kbytes/sec or better, they still wanted to complain about Viasat, instead of fixing what was clearly their problem.  Viasat's data plans are more than ample for anyone who prudently manages their resources.
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Bradley

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Actually they are outstanding plans for people who don’t expect much.
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xode0000, Champion

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You don't need "much" to do just about anything you want, provided you remove and/or turn off all of the waste and burn that's inevitably built into many programs these days.
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Bev, Champion

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I'm sorry you had such a bad experience, Jack. 

I know that isn't usually the case. Yes, I've had just about every possible problem happen to me in the last 15 years as a Viasat customer but, many I was able to resolve without a service call, with the help of the Customer Care team. Three occasions (4 if you count having to have the dish replaced after my step son felled a tree on the dish.) have required a service call. Two of those were for a modem upgrade but, I also requested an inspection and, peak and tune at the same time. Only one was strictly due to degraded service.

In my experience, Viasat deliver what I pay for, no not top speed 24/7 but, well withing what is spelled out in my contract and, other information provided on the Viasat websites.
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Jim16

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Diana is so polite!
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Voyager

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It all comes down to what options you have. I live in a very rural area and my driveway is 1700’ long. I previously had DSL service that was abysmal. I am just shy of the 18,000’ maximum DSL line distance from the phone hut. Even though I had 6 Mbps DSL service, I almost never got above 3 on a speed test and often ran in the 1-2 Mbps range. However, the most maddening part was the 10-50 disconnects per day. If we watched a Netflix show in the 5-10 PM time window, we would get 3-5 disconnects during every 45 minute show!

I tried to get Spectrum cable service, but they said that my property was unserviceable without construction that I would have to bear the cost of. The cost was considerable at $8,600. I planned to just suffer along with DSL, but then a week after Spectrum told me they had cancelled my service order, my DSL quit working. When I called Frontier, they told me it was ported out to Spectrum at their request. I am still not sure I know what all transpired, but apparently Spectrum forgot to cancel the “port out” request when they cancelled my work order. After 7 days without DSL or landline phone service, and half a dozen or more phone calls, Frontier told me it would take another 10 days to get service restored. At that point, I took it as a sign to try satellite. I had always heard that satellite was terrible so I had never wanted to risk it given the 24 month contracts. I spent a good part of the 7 days with no DSL comparing Hughesnet and Viasat. I can get very slow internet via my Verizon data plan, but I live on the fringe of cell coverage so the internet is maddeningly slow using the cell phone. Based on the plan details and reviews I read and customer feedback I saw, Viasat narrowly edged out Hughesnet. I liked that they had a local retailer where Hughesnet seems to work only through their 800 number. I have no idea how they select a local installer, but I found no listing as is provided by Viasat.

So far (I have yet to hit my first data cap, but that is only a day or two away), I have been very impressed. The local retailer who did my installation was fantastic to work with. I have a Leviton structured wiring panel and a fairly sophisticated in-home phone, TV and internet system (I have fiber to every room in my house, though not yet terminated and in use). Frontier seemed to always blame issues on my in-home network and I always had to unplug the modem from my network and plug a laptop directly into it when a tech came. No such issues with the Viasat installer. He actually complimented me on my system. I had a spare RG-11 cable from my workshop (which has my TV antenna mount) to my home and I really wanted to use that as I did not want the dish on my log house. The installer said that Viasat requires copper core cable, but my RG-11 was purchased from a CATV company and was thus CCS core. However, the tech said the only real issue was that the installation tests had to be passed and he was more than willing to give my cable a try. He was skeptical since the cable length was also long at about 130’. However, we mounted the dish to a platform made from som scrap lumber I had and I terminated the spare RG-11 and he plugged in the dish and modem. It worked just fine with the modem reporting only 1.5 - 2 ohms resistance in the line. I don’t know what the maximum allowable DC resistance is, but it passed all of the installation tests with flying colors. So, the tech mounted the dish to my workshop and in less than two hours my system was up and running. Other than an IP address conflict with my wifi router, everything came up and worked instantly.

I have only had the dish for 8 days, but so far I am pleased. Speed tests show 10-18 Mbps, often above the 12 Mbps advertised speed. I have had only one loss of signal during a recent heavy thunderstorm, which is rare in northern PA in December, and had no issue with the snowstorm we had which left an inch of snow and ice on the dish. I may change my tune in a couple more days when we exceed 25 Gig cap and go into liberty pass mode, but so far I am a pretty happy customer. Even the latency hasn’t been as big as issue as I had expected. Since I really have no other good options, I will stay with satellite for now. The good news is that my electric cooperative has started a fiber broadband installation and sometime within the next few years I will have FTTH. I will then almost certainly switch to fiber even though it will mean digging up my yard and having a mess for a few months.
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VeteranSatUser, Champion

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A high RxSNR doesn't mean you still won't see slow speeds (due to beam congestion).

However, a low RxSNR will lead to more frequent disconnects and packet loss (creating more retries) because the signal is lower to start with. 

Their are two main beams in Ohio Ron.  We are on the same beam that basically covers eastern Ohio, over to WV and western PA.  The other beam starts approximately west of Zanesville and runs north and south from there.  This is approximately of course.  I did see a more detailed beam map one time.  The beams split my county in two.

What Jab is speaking of is in extreme NE Ohio, extreme NW PA, and extreme western New York, there is no Viasat-1 beam at all.  I believe Viasat-2 was going to resolve this, but with the antenna issue, I am not sure if it does or doesn't.  We are all aware that after almost a year, no publically released beam map of Viasat-2 has been shared.
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Jab

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RE: this is SE Ohio

I believe your packets are sent to Winnipeg...from there, I have no idea where they are sent...back to US, or sent out from there.  I'd look for a speedtest site located in that city, and see if a difference is seen.

As noted, if using a router, turn off QOS

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Jab

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RE: Speedtest.net Desktop app lies like a SOB

There are good/bad speedtests, but using a site far away from your POP will never give relevant results.

The POP I use is out of Denver.  So, at testmy.net I use their Colorado Springs server.

This is after midnight....Sunday AM hour

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Ron Frank

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Yes Vet I am due south of Zanesville.  Closer to Athens, Marietta, but regardless its middle of nowhere.  If I remember the map correctly I believe 3 or 4 beams (on VS1) intersect in this area, but none actually "cover" it.

It is a VERY rural area and most have satellite internet locally.  Some villages and towns are lucky enough to have land based internet, yet out here it is rare.  As I said DSL from the nearest "village" stops about 4 - 4 1/2 miles from me.  Ironically the same "village" my mail comes out of a.k.a "my address" but my deed says "an unincorporated portion of the township."

The FCC dictates to DirecTV my "local" channels are Columbus, 75 miles away, while Parkersburg is only 15 - 20 miles, but their "parent stations" are out of Charleston/Huntington, 78 miles away.  The WV stations give more "news" from my area but worst of all is the weather!  I watched CBS out of Columbus track a tornado headed straight for me with live coverage, yet as soon as it was out of the "greater Columbus area" they went back to regularly scheduled programming!

Oh well I guess sacrifices must be made.  Coming from "the city" in the outskirts of NYC I love the fact I know all my neighbors, in fact EVERYONE on my road!  And I havent locked my door in years.  I think it was 5 years ago I changed the latch/lock on my front door and still dont have the key on my ring.  ALL my neighbors are armed, the one next door has 2 cannons, and strangers GET NOTICED!  Hell, back when I still had landline phone Centurylink repair came out and 30 seconds after I got a call from the repairman I got a call informing me there was a "van" in front of my house, and my neighbor out back was "cruising" on his 4 wheeler "keeping an eye on the guy"  LOL
(Edited)
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GabeU, Champion

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What Jab is speaking of is in extreme NE Ohio, extreme NW PA, and extreme western New York, there is no Viasat-1 beam at all.
This would explain why I couldn't get Exede where I live (Western NY).  Nothing was available until VS2 went live.  
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VeteranSatUser, Champion

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Up next. The feats of strength! I nominate Stephen vs. the guy posting the other day that is going to bring Viasat to its knees with the state of Florida!
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Jim16

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I miss our Knight in shinning armor.  Maybe he's all tied up with his attorney planning their next strike. 

I vote for Stephen.  He does his feats of strength without throwing his money away on attorneys!
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GabeU, Champion

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I'd pay to see that!  :)  
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Voyager

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I doubt I will live long enough to see Elon Musk or anyone else for that matter get an LEO system operational. That will require a ton of money and a lot of satellite launch vehicles that don’t exist today. Even if someone can convince themselves that the business model is sound, the logistics alone make this a 10-20 year out proposition, if it happens at all.
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Jab

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RE: "...I’ve heard this story at least once before"

These are ambitious projects, and as years have rolled on since earlier thinking, better how to do insights have come along. Musk may pull out, on the road ahead. Cheaper vehicle antennas, and OEM integration into vehicles, would be a big factor for a fully operational system.

Two articles below:

- 12/18/2018 SpaceX raising $500 million to help build satellite broadband network -
...
...
The funding round would pay for initial costs but not the entire project, which the Journal report said could cost as much as $10 billion.
...
...
...
The slow progress led Musk to fire some of the project's senior managers. Still, the schedule hasn't changed much since November 2016, when SpaceX's FCC license application mentioned 2019 as a possible time for launching satellites into orbit. A Reuters report in October this year said SpaceX is planning to launch satellites in mid-2019 and offer broadband service in 2020.
=======================


Bugs on Wheels: The New Generation of Autonomous Vehicles

The new generation of connected cars — especially autonomous vehicles — will be a boom market for satellite, says the satellite industry. Not so fast, says the mobile industry. 5G is the future. Signals from space will have nothing to do with it. But, who is right? One? Both? Neither?
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Voyager

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I think all will play a role, but hard to see satellites being cost competitive with 5G for wireless and performance competitive with fiber for business and high use residential. However, Musk and Googles money may help lower the cost of the other alternatives as they try to minimize their losses on the satellites.
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VeteranSatUser, Champion

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I miss the ignore feature of the old forum!!!!
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Jab

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RE: "...hard to see satellites being cost competitive with 5G..."

Paradigm shifts, from one method/tech to another, do happen.  Flashback, from horses to vehicles:

1897: Sold an average of 900 horses weekly.

...horse company Fiss, Doerr, and Carroll.

The outfit, which proclaimed itself the “largest dealers of horses in the world,” occupied an entire block of Manhattan and in 1897 sold an average of 900 horses weekly.....“They were a huge company,” says Mode, “and this was the peak of their power. Ten years later, they were selling vehicles, and 20 years later, they were out of business.”
=================

5G has limitations...yes, in metro areas it will come about...but US coverage, not in our lifetimes.  Satellite can cover US within a decade or less, if investors perceive a demand, and if cheaper antennas exist.

Autonomous vehicles will require massive amounts of transmitted data.  So, cheaper antennas are required to drive this transformation, along with government blessings. European OEMs are focused upon this 'brave new world,' and US OEMs are paying attention and evaluating their systems.  Maybe much ado about nothing, but if economics favor a paradigm shift, these OEMs will jump on this bandwagon.

If oil prices climbed in next five years, I would expect petro drivelines to be transformed into electric means.  The winds of change can happen overnight, or take years.
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VeteranSatUser, Champion

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I miss the ignore feature of the old forum!!!!
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Stephen Rice, Champion

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Sounds like an episode of celebrity death match.
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Jim16

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Image result for Elon Musk vs
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Ron Frank

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These forums really crack me up.  I am envious of all you people who enjoy fast trouble free service, and get on the band wagon declaring a free for all on those of us who dont.  So many comments about congested beams and totally horrible areas yet little to no understanding or compassion for those actually suffering with it.

Comments, especially from "Champions" with the attitude "I dont have a problem, so nobody else should," and as the OP states ... NO help from customer service what so ever, it must be weather, something must be blocking your dish, there must be a problem with your equipment, IT OBVIOUSLY HAS TO BE ON YOUR END! 

Tech, after tech, after tech came out, 5 or 6 "dish alignments," I cut more trees down, I cut ALL my trees down, new dish, new modem, all new wiring before a tech finally sat down and explained the congestion issue in detail, and how Viasat1 is simply way too overcrowded in my area.   That was 3 years ago.  My service has continued to get worse since, sometimes by the month, and the long anticipated Viasat2 has done NOTHING to help my beam.

So yes, I applaud all you subscribers who enjoy 25+ Mbps and watching your video content and have no issues when your speed gets "throttled."  I REMEMBER WHAT THAT IS LIKE!  I did have that years ago!  So brag on about how YOUR service has improved and throw your stones at me because mine continues to deteriorate. 

Am I a disgruntled customer?  I pay the same you do, and was made the same promises you were, yet you are getting "high speed internet" and I dont  ... WHAT DO YOU THINK?
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AZgl1800

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With only six weeks experience so far, we went over the Data Cap by 9.8gB
we do not watch TV via the internet, we only use it for browsing, forums, and Facebook..... it has been consistent for us nearly all the time.
I have had the occasional page not want to load, I drop the Tab and then request it again, and it comes right up usually.
My daughter watches NetFlix on her Kindle every night, 2 or 3 movies, at 360p....
I watch the Facebook videos at 240p
Neither of us have noticed any slow down, ( throttling ) at all.
we are on ViaSat-2  for what that is worth. have no experience with any other Satellite except for my aunt who had Hughesnet and hated it the day it was installed.
She abandoned it and went to Verizon with a MiFi JetPack and never looked back.
:
We are night owls, most of our OnlineTime is between 10 PM and 6 a.m. except for myself, I just browse the motorcycle forums and my Linux forum thru the daylight hours. that does not impose any hard download issues.... I am happy, I get what I want, reliable browsing all the time.
:
I had AT&T DSL and lived only 5,000 feet from the Central Office.... six weeks ago, we had 27 outages in 14 hours. that was the day that I called the ViaSat rep here in our town.
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Voyager

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I hit my data cap in 8 days. I am using about 3 gig/day on average with 4 users in my household. I need to onvince my wife that we should watch Netflix between 3 and 6 AM rather than in the evening. LOL.

I do watch a lot of YouTube videos as it is a great way to learn new skills. I just installed a boiler in my workshop and almost all of my learning was from YouTube. I am planning to start a home built airplane project this year so I am educating myself in that direction and that generally means an hour or so a day of video watching. It all adds up data wise.
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xode0000, Champion

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"How’s this for service my power supply to the modem failed I called Viasat for service. Their reply was a service appointment is not available yet we’ve been kinda busy we’ll get back to you within 48 hours. Finally after 3 weeks a service rep showed up to replace the power supply."
For everyone's information since Jack Tors has cancelled his Viasat service: Viasat installers are 3rd party companies separate from Viasat and they don't work for Viasat.  The problem Jack Tors is describing is due to the 3rd party installer he had.  A Viasat customer who has such a problem with their installer can request that Viasat do a sales channel change to an installer for their area who will give them proper service.
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xode0000, Champion

  • 497 Posts
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"How’s this for service my power supply to the modem failed I called Viasat for service. Their reply was a service appointment is not available yet we’ve been kinda busy we’ll get back to you within 48 hours. Finally after 3 weeks a service rep showed up to replace the power supply."
For everyone's information since Jack Tors has cancelled his Viasat service: Viasat installers are 3rd party companies separate from Viasat and they don't work for Viasat.  The problem Jack Tors is describing is due to the 3rd party installer he had.  A Viasat customer who has such a problem with their installer can request that Viasat do a sales channel change to an installer for their area who will give them proper service.
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Cory

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@Bev. “Viasat should deny installs if a land based option is available at the address.”

Ehhhh. Perhaps if they have more than one option of land based option that is wired. Cause the only land based choice I have is AT&T dsl and it sucks 24/7

Viasat is good for me. Only seems to be really bad on school breaks so far. So I’d rather deal with bad internet for only a temporary time, rather than 24/7
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AZgl1800

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REF to:

Stephen Rice, Champion

  • 2351 Posts
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AZgl1800 is a Viasat shill.

you sir, are a piece of crap.   I live in Oologah, OK and have been with ViaSat-2 since Nov 24..... I am anything but a shill, I have been an IT Comm Tech since 1958.  I knew in advance what to expect when I went to ViaSat.... you can't beat the Speed of Light..... and I also was aware that in the evenings network congestion is going to be bad.... but the sat has always been there for me, with a single exception every 24 hours it drops off for a few minutes.  I use NetUptimeMonitor to record the outages. here is the most recent log.
12/25/2018 6:22:07 PM    0:02:17
12/27/2018 8:57:32 AM    0:04:15
12/27/2018 8:51:45 PM    0:01:00

I am friends with Matt Phillips who is the ViaSat agent here in our town, he sells under the name of Okie-Fi

I have only been on this blog/forum once, and just now came back to see how this thread is doing.
I have SpeedTests ranging from 4-5Mbps at the worst times, to 63Mbps at the best of times in the middle of the night.  on Average, Google Speed Test reports 17-27 Mbps.... their Latency reports are NOT to the satellite and back down, that is for sure. I always see 12mS to houston, tx.... that is NOT from my PC to them.... no way,


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GabeU, Champion

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AZgl1800, 

You misunderstood.  Stephen Rice was joking when he said that, and he did so because practically anyone who says anything decent or accepting about ViaSat, or satellite internet in general, is considered and called shill by a select group of people.  

If anyone could be considered a ViaSat shill it would be Stephen Rice, even though he's not.  He often gets that because his ViaSat service, and his plan, work very well for him, and he often says so.  So he was just kidding, calling you that before a specific person in this thread had a chance to.  You're not familiar with him, so it's understandable that you didn't get that.  

Heck, I've been called a ViaSat shill and I don't even have ViaSat.  Explaining congestion as a cause of slow speeds first earned me that moniker because I chose to explain the actual cause rather than just jumping on the "hate ViaSat" bandwagon.  
(Edited)
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Stephen Rice, Champion

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I agree with Gabe for the most part with one exception. I am indeed a piece of crap. A stinky one too. V
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Bev, Champion

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AZgl1800, 

I guess we should explain a bit here. Among us Campions, we hear the "You're a Schill" thing so often that we take it as a compliment - we usually give the same answers a Viasat employee would, more or less and, because we have read, learned and, dealt with nearly every possible reason for poor, degraded or non working service ourselves, or seen it here many times over the years, we tend to have good service.

We don't complain about problems, we go digging and, find the reason ad, the solution, we manage our priority data carefully and so forth so, we often have top speeds for our beam, even when others don't due to some issue that could be addressed with a little patience.

Because of that, some posters here think we are paid or compensated in some way and, they call us "schills" We make light of it because we are NOT paid or compensated at all.

@Stephen Rice - ya fergot to clean that dang outhouse seat an' got the darned thing stuck to yer backside again - that's what's makin' you stink like crap. xD
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VeteranSatUser, Champion

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IDC what he says, Stephen Rice is an unpaid shill with his own magic beam!
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Steve Frederick-VS1/Beam314, Champion

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All that garlic he eats keeps his beam non-congested.
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AZgl1800

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Okay, I am "brand new" to this community forum, and it will take me a while to learn how the users comment on things. It was no different when I started to "larn Linux sux" and signed into the Linux Mint forums.... I have been an IT tech with big momma since DOS 1.0 right OTB, and loved DOS 6.x which was the cream of that crop..... Didn't like the brand new GUI that came along as "Windows", but suck it up kid, your employer says "you will only use Windows to VPN tunnel into our systems from home"... My first experience with ViaSat was when my new, "soon to be friend", Matt Phillips of Okie-Fi ( dealer for ViaSat ), brought over a terminal bolted to a wooden pallet. We had been conversing via Facebook originally, then by phone later, and I kept drilling him for specifics on Rain fade, heavy cloud cover, versus DirecTV which I had then. I told him that I will NOT buy a satellite package in advance without personal knowledge of how it is going to perform for me and my daughter.... I'm 75, she is 44 now. as I've mentioned, we are night owls, and don't usually hit the Internet until noon or later. I awake at 0400 to 0500 and browse FB for a while, read a book and drift off to sleep again.... then around noon or so, we both are ready for the world.. The Terminal 'TRIA' that he brought over is on ViaSat-2 and the previous person he loaned it to for a trial, downloaded a humongous amount of ISOs so he could play around with them, even if he didn't subscribe to ViaSat. That terminal was already over the Data Cap when I got it.... but, at the hours we were using it, it did not even slow down.... the test speeds were 35gB and more.... comparing that to my AT&T DSL with 10-11gB in the wee hours, and only 0.2gB in the prime time hours, it was a no brainer for me. Matt let me use the test package for 7 days.... by that time, I had built up a lot of history and speedtests... still have the text files documenting that week. He called me up on Nov 23rd and said I need to get the text pak back..... and I said, well, you are gonna have to install a permanent one on the roof before you leave then.... I had to really suck it up hard when I saw the $80/month for 35gB Data Cap at the advertised 25Mbps speed because we were running thru 100gB/month on average with DSL.... my personal laptop on Linux was burning thru 39gB/month according to VNSTAT, a builtin data use utility for Linux Mint. This is a sample of my latest VNSTAT on my Linux laptop, the start/stop dates are 24th to 24th of each month. john@john-TP500LA ~ $ vnstat rx / tx / total / estimated wlp3s0f0: Nov '18 28.24 GiB / 2.20 GiB / 30.45 GiB Dec '18 14.88 GiB / 1.36 GiB / 16.24 GiB / 0 KiB yesterday 437.66 MiB / 37.35 MiB / 475.01 MiB today 252.05 MiB / 30.14 MiB / 282.19 MiB / 360 MiB john@john-TP500LA ~ $ We have 3 laptops, and one Win7 desktop, plus the SmartTV on our Internet connection. I didn’t have a way to monitor the full throughput to the DSL, didn’t care anyway, it was unlimited, if you had any service, that is. So, it was with a bit of trepidation that we decided to go ahead and subscribe to ViaSat..... as of today, we have no regrets.... The ViaSat-2 system is performing well..... The Christmas holidays proved to me that it can handle the extra load of all the new toys, and kids being home for 9 days.... Yeah, it slowed down, but even at the worst of times, it was still giving us 4-5Mbps down, and a fairly consistent 2-4Mbps up. 12/29/2018 19:19 as of right now, we have burned up 13.6 GB with 26 days remaining of our billing cycle. IF, we continue to use data at the same rate, we will go through 84.32 gB.... And with the cap at 35gB it will be interesting to see what happens. Last month, we went over by 9.8gB and we did not experience any slow down in our viewing habits. NetFlix from midnight to 5 a.m. on a Kindle, and myself viewing the videos on Facebook. I am not a movie buff on a computer. So, I guess that is my “introduction post” to the forum.... We just finished watching Evil Knievel on DirecTV, was a good show.... That guy is about my age.... Real idiot, but a consummate showman for sure.
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Terry Hill

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I should put an S in my last name Terry Shill! bahahaha
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AZgl1800

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ugh!  I just looked at my last post, and ALL of paragraphing formatting has been stripped out, just one long sentence....

That is very irritating..... copied from LibreOffice and pasted to the forum.....

Trying this from  Xed instead....

EDIT:  well, Xed worked, but I don't see anyway to back up 1 post and fix that formatting?
(Edited)
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GabeU, Champion

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Once a post has been replied to or liked it gets locked so that it can no longer be edited, unfortunately.
(Edited)
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VeteranSatUser, Champion

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I miss a number of features from the old forum. Editing and blocking being two of them!
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Stephen Rice, Champion

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A Viasat shill who knows how to use proper punctuation. I’m impressed.
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Old Labs (VS1-329-L12FZ)

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Well he is well paid, educated and I was unaware Viasat was a Fortune 500 company ;)
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AZgl1800

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On my motorcycle forum, we let a post sit for 72 hours and then it is locked...
moderators can unlock it if needed....
Threads stay open for 2 years from last posting date, then that thread is locked.
( again, if needed, a moderator can open it )

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AZgl1800

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Just wanted to say, that I appreciate the way that this forum can send an email that links direct to a comment.
I just received an email ref: a post made weeks ago, way up at the top of this thread...
I would never have seen it had it not been for the link to that exact comment.

I guess I am going to test the Throttling back to Zero Internet this month.
We are burning thru the data:

16.8 GB  24 days remaining in the current billing period

at this rate, we are predicted to hit 80+gB for the month, that is just "slightly" over our 35gB Priority Data limit. :)

AT&T DSL was so poor for us, that we never could watch videos. Now I can.... but, I better wean myself off of that stuff.... and stick to forums like I used to.

The Bronze Plan so far, this being our 6th week  of use, has been good to us on VS2 beaming into the N.E. part of Oklahoma.
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Steve Frederick-VS1/Beam314, Champion

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Here is how you can tell which satellite you are on.

If you have the triangular modem, you are on VS2. Otherwise you are on VS1.
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Voyager

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I have the flat modem so looks like VS1. Works well thus far. That triangular modem is ugly and it won’t fit in my Leviton panel. What a dumb design.
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AZgl1800

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I read the explanation for that design.  It houses 4 WiFi radios for both 2.4g and 5g, and antennas for each modem. It is spec'd to allow all 4 radios to run at full speed ( subject to congestion ) simultaneously.
The ability to do that, generates a lot of heat, so they had to make it tall enough to encompass the antennas and the Triangular design allows the heat to flow up and out of the modem.  I have it on a shelf above my PC.

You can also mount it vertically attached to a wall with the Blue circles at the lowest point. lets the cables exit up and out of the way....
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Voyager

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I have a structured wiring system in my house using Leviton equipment. The panel is only about 4” deep and it did not look like that monstrosity would fit. The tech had one in his van, but said that service was not available in my area, but was in other parts of his territory. I told him just as well as I would not want it. I have my own home network with ethernet switches and wifi routers as well as optical fiber to each room of my house. I end up disability the wifi in all of my WAN modems as wifi doesn’t work very well in a metal box. LOL.

I wish these suppliers would offer an option for a modem only. I much prefer separate wifi routers that I can locate where I want them and not have them tied to the location where the DSL or satellite cable enters my house.
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AZgl1800

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The modem for ViaSat-2 has two CAT-5 LAN ports, run one of those to your WiFi system.
you can dial into the VS2 modem turn the Broadcast ID off so it won't interfere with your router.
or, just force the channel to one a long ways from where your channel(s) is.


(Edited)
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Al Santayos

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My posts against VIACRAP are getting erased.That is obvious.Viasat is a joke. Remember all to try your local cell service for internet as they offer a 14 day trial period where VIASAT makes you sign a 2 year contract with no trial period so you are screwed if their service does not work for you. Viasat sucks donkey balls.

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GabeU, Champion

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I've had the 5g Verizon MiFi since before June of 2018... 
How did that happen?
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Ron Frank

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Yup, Im one of the "lucky" ones who chooses to live in a rural area with a horrendous infrastructure.  Poor or no cell service.  HD antenna on my TV gets me 7 channels of PBS.  Landline phone is terrible.  Few years ago the county mowed and from what I heard took out 13 junction boxes!  2 foot tall GREEN boxes, hidden in 3 ft tall green grass ... YUP MAKES SENSE TO ME!  10 DAYS my phone was out, my Exede voice was installed the day after it finally got fixed, and I have never looked back.

Ive been with Wildblue/Exede/Viasat for 6+ years, They didnt "sucker" me into a 2 year contract. They didnt lie to me.  I understood the inherent problems with satellite.   I KNOW they have the technology to back up their advertising claims.  I HAD IT!  I have literally watched this congestion issue manifest the past few years as they have signed up more, and more, and more subscribers as my service gets worse and worse.. 

I was told Viasat2 would solve everything.  I was told Viasat2 would have a beam pointed at my heavily congested region.   WRONG ON BOTH COUNTS!

Viasat is not responsible for where I choose to live.  Viasat is not responsible for the latency issues associated with satellite.  Viasat is not responsible for weather related outages.  BUT THE CONGESTION/OVERCROWDING ISSUE IS 100% A PROBLEM OF THEIR OWN MAKING AND THEY NEED TO DO SOMETHING!!!
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VeteranSatUser, Champion

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The antenna issues significantly impacted Viasat's plans to resolve the congestion issue in many parts of the country (they didn't get an 180 million+ insurance payment just because).

The other shoe that dropped was when they went to the "unlimited" plans offering 150GB of priority data. That was way, way too much priority data to offer in certain areas of the country.

So by offering too much data, and then not getting the anticipated relief from Viasat-2, we are where we are.
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VeteranSatUser, Champion

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And yes. Jab confirmed the poster above does not have a 5G hotspot. I didn't think it was out yet. One reason why I haven't upgraded mine. I have one of the last models to do both 3G and 4G (for the poster above your old model would have worked fine at least another year), so am waiting for the 5G model before I upgrade.
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AZgl1800

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I just verified that Jab is correct.  It seems that the VZW Supervisor was clueless when I talked with them last June.... Here is what the JetPack shows
Network Name

Verizon Wireless USA

Technology  4G LTE

Did not ever look into the internals of this Ellipsis JetPack until today....
I got it for 'Free' so no skin off my nose....
What it does do though,  it is much more sensitive to receiving weak LTE signals than my old one which is 12-15 years old?

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Cory

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My internet hasn’t been so bad. Though it kinda is bad now. Right now it’s been pulling .50 to 8.00 mbps i suspect due to traffic of kids being on due to school break. I’ll get worried if it doesn’t get better in the coming days when kids start getting back in school.

But during normal time I get 25-30 mbps so I can’t complain.
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AZgl1800

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it is 7:30 PM Jan 1st.... probably nobody using the internet today, right?  ha ha

getting 27+ right now,


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Jab

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Break Time Video: Volvo S90 Song Of The Open Road

Walt Whitman (1819 - 1892) is primarily known for a collection of poems called Leaves of Grass, which he completely revised at least five times during the course of his life and which appeared in print in at least three different editions. Though his formal education ended with elementary school, Whitman was an educator at several points in his life. More often, he worked as a printer, a clerk, or a nurse; he was chronically poor, but managed to interject culture (he loved opera) and travel into his life. He achieved international acclaim during the course of his career, but probably had as many detractors as he did fans
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AZgl1800

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Well, guess my Wedding Reception with ViaSat is done and over with.  for the last two nights, we have been restricted to less than 1gB down..... just last night 0.38gB at 9:30pm ...... and just a few minutes ago
01/17/2019 08:36   SpeedTEST   18.2Mbps download   3.37  and in the early hours of the day, I was getting 25-35Mbps almost all the time.

My daughter downloaded a few Starz movies to her cellphone last night, and the night before....
Immediately, I noticed that my browsing speeds hit the toilet.
Facebook just refused to load period...... so much for "unlimited internet"

I am calling up OliveIP today and having a little discussion with them, and see what cellphone carriers they work with in my area..... their website only shows AT&T and T-Mobile ( not worth a damn in rural areas )

www.OliveIP.com here I come. 

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AZgl1800

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@barg_
Thanks for your comments on Surecall, and the VZW MiFi plan number "28366"
When I called VZW Customer Tech service, I specially asked them about an Unlimited plan for the JetPack...
after reading your comments, I think that I need to call them back and refer to that model JetPack.... maybe the one I have is suitable? dunno, but I get speeds on it similar to what you linked to..  it of course depends on how close the cell tower is.... I just brought up my "Open Signal" Android app and there is only 1 cell tower close to me on VZW..... and it won't show up on the map.... I don't know if that is because VZW is restricting the locations to be known, or if it just isn't in the database for my area?

I just reviewed all of the SureCall antennas, and the one that I am going to get is the
SureCall CM230-800 Bi-Directional 806-960 MHz External Yagi Antenna 14 element, 14 dBi gain model.
I have a couple of Painters push up poles that I use for all kinds of stuff, like pushing up the 120VAC entrance jumper cable to my RV across from my shop at home.... Don't like laying it on the ground, as we have a lot of rolling stock that will ruin the SO cord with abuse.  ( Golf cart, lawn tractor, GL1800 m/c )

I will get with VZW before the OliveIP modem arrives, so I have known info to consider before I jump into their plans.  Initially will only sign up for the Month-to-Month no contract plan until I get some data on how good it is for me.

Wish I had had that 14 element Yagi with me last summer when we parked for 9 days up in a canyon south of Colorado Springs.... the VZW signal was only about 1 bar inside the plastic sided Toy Hauler we have... and mostly gone as we walked around the Campgrounds...  a push up pole and 14 dBi gain might have been very beneficial at the time.

We will be spending 9 days in Homosassa Springs , Fl at a RV park next March.... looked at the T-Mobile data there and it seems to be Solid Red, with a lot of Customer Verified signal reports as being "excellent"...

I am also looking at buying one of the SureCall Signal Boosters to help out our cellphones in weak areas... not sure on that yet, as WiFi calling could negate the need for that with the OliveIP modem WiFi package...

I already own a VZW Mini-cell device that only needs to see the Internet, and my cellphones lock onto it like a bandit.... when we first moved to Oologah, OK there wasn't any VZW towers near us... so I had to buy the Mini-cell to get VZW service... Roaming did not work worth a damn inside our home.  I can't recall if it supports 4g or not?

Lots to think on, and need to research it all before laying out the big bucks.  Thanks to all who have helped me think this through.
AZgl1800

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Terry Hill

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Saturday night on Liberty pass
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Jab

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RE: SureCall CM230-800

Discontinued by manufacture...SureCall SC-230W Wide-band Directional is its replacement.

VZW uses different bands, as other wireless carriers do.  If using a wireless carrier locally, there might be a cheap signal boosters for most carriers.  If traveling, getting a wideband signal booster is prudent.

Here's some basic info on bands used, and a person needs to know what bands are being used when a cheaper signal booster is used. 

I have a Sprint-like-carrier and VZW, so it was a no brainer to get a wideband.  At around seven to nine miles to these towers, and with excellent line of sight to them, reception/transmission are excellent.  These are rural towers with low traffic...when cell traffic increases, a tower ranges decreases.

I've been with Wildblue/Viasat since beginning year, 2005, but now, I have two broadband cellular options available.  Both cell providers can deliver the speed, but at this time, I'll stay with Viasat.

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GabeU, Champion

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My only beef right now with viasat is they act like there’s nothing they can do about it. 
Sure, there's something they can do about it.  Dump a bunch of subs.  Seeing that this is not legal, nor financially viable, nor smart in any way, that's not happening.  

You continue to disregard the realities of a system with a finite capacity.  You continue to disregard the info given to you by those who know more about it than you.  You continue to be convinced that it's just ViaSat throttling you, and nothing and no one is going to convince you otherwise.  The sad thing is that you aren't misinformed, as you've been given the actual reasons numerous times.  It's just that you refuse to believe or accept what's factual, instead relying on your mistaken belief.  

Are slow speeds fun?  No.  Is it disheartening to deal with them on a continual basis.  Of course.  Is it frustrating to not have the up to speeds advertised, or even anything near them?  Absolutely.  That still doesn't make an imagined cause any more real.    
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Old Labs (VS1-329-L12FZ)

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Be thankful I'm not parading naked...
(Edited)
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Terry Hill

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With all these people leaving for other companies for there isp is making my Liberty plan the best plan to have atm, even in Liberty pass I don't see much slowdown during prime time anymore. If it does slow down it is only for a very brief moment then speeds are back to 16 o 18mbps, during prime the last week I have been seeing speed of 6 to 10mps during prime time while on Liberty pass since my 12gb data is gone. Is this because of Viasat 2 taking off the load or because lots of people have jumped ship? I say it is cause of people leaving tbh cause Viasat 2 is not available in my area but I could be wrong. Anyway something has changed in the last few months cause never have I seen Viasat as good as it is atm.
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Old Labs (VS1-329-L12FZ)

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Who are you and what have you done to Stephen Rice? But glad to see my Viasat sucks narrative under another identity, ViaSatan, is kicking in and having an impact ;)

Seriously though I'm seeing much the same on Liberty 12 for whatever reason.
(Edited)
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Jab

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RE: "... something has changed in the last few months..."

If aircrafts were using your beam, and if VS-2 shines in your location, then they may have re-shifted these "aircraft" frequencies for consumer usage.
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Old Labs (VS1-329-L12FZ)

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Yes I know - unlike others I'm content knowing it's better without a discussison of the possibilities. I'll simply attribute it to aliens. This too shall pass, as the beam was recently reopened to new customers after being closed for about a year.
(Edited)
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Stephen Rice, Champion

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Brian went home.
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Ron Frank

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Im following all this talk about these cell phone internet "thingies" LOL  My dad is running one and is happy with it.  I guess now the state of Ohio has teamed up with a couple companies to bring "low cost high speed internet" to rural Ohioans ... via cell phone towers.

I couldnt do a search fast enough on the OliveIP being discussed, sadly as another stated its on AT&T or T-mobile.  We ONLY have Verizon out here.  Upstairs in the south facing window we can make a call now (conditions permitting), but 8 years ago when we moved in there was NO SERVICE AT ALL!

When I say satellite is my ONLY option I MEAN IT!  I was very happy with my Wildblue/Exede/Viasat when I got it, BEFORE THE "CONGESTION" ISSUE.  Then I waited for VS2, and was really let down, that has pretty much destroyed any faith I had for VS3.  I was hoping for Elon Musk to get his idea for satellite internet up and running, but I could be dead and gone before that comes to fruition.

It appears my greatest hope for internet at this juncture is for somebody to construct a cell tower nearer to me so I get a viable signal.  In the past 8 years they have constructed at least 3 I know of "in the area" that have brought me the limited signal I have now, but I am only on the fringe of their coverage.

I was told 5 - 7 years ago Verizon bought an abandoned microwave tower I can almost see from my house for conversion to a cell tower, but every time I inquire about it all I hear is its still tied up with the FCC over permits, licensing, etc.

Life goes on.  Until something better comes along I am stuck paying what I consider a ridiculous price for my "up to" high speed internet, depending "up to" how many others are on, and do "up to" what my data allows.... and one must not forget. "up to" rain, snow, and cloud cover.
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Ron Frank

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WOW Yagi, now theres a name I havent heard since the old CB days!

Yes an antenna has been a thought for years, both cell phone and TV, but although I live on a "ridge" I am in a hole.  My house is 119 years old, and the builder owned everything here back then, and he chose this spot for the house.  I can only imagine for a wind break?  My roof is road level.  The property across the road is now owned by someone else, the "milk house" across the road sits higher than my house, and beyond that is a good hill with a huge level spot on top where the cattle barn stood before it burned YEARS ago, but his "house" he put down in a hole.

Since I need to get above my roof AND out of this hole I have been eyeing up a few old antenna (CB) towers people are selling.  My problem there is being on top of this ridge, lightning becomes an issue.  Ive only been here 8 years now, and seen the lightning rods atop the old milk house get struck a couple times already.
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GabeU, Champion

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Im following all this talk about these cell phone internet "thingies"
Me too, but until they upgrade my nearest cell tower I don't really have a prayer.  And it will be years, I'm sure, before 5G becomes available here.  :(  
 
It's still interesting to read about peoples' experiences with them, though.  
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fmj77

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I wish I could have a reliable backup to my satellite connection. I can barely pick up 3G due to distance from the tower and being in a mountainous area. Even when I can pick up a data signal it's terribly slow.
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GabeU, Champion

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Same here.   On a very good day I'll see maybe 2Mbps.  Normally it's lower than that. 

The other day I had to update a couple of apps on my phone and I was too tired to go through the process of enabling the WiFi in my modem (I normally keep it off), which I had also just unplugged.  That was a mistake.  It took nearly a half hour to update two apps.  SMH.  Granted, I was doing other things while it was updating, but sheesh.     
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fmj77

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I can occasionally get 1Mbps using my signal booster, but it's rare. Basic browsing is about all it will let me do.
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Al Santayos

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I have found for some reason that my Verizon hotspot Jetpack works a lot better than my cell phone. The people at the Verizon store claim it has a much stronger antenna than the phone. Who knows if that is true or not. What I do know is unlike VIASAT you have a 14 day trial period, so nothing to lose if it doesn't work.

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